Inquiry On Concertina Tone

[ttonon]

How many concertina players/makers participating in this group have noticed variations in tone among the notes in his/her instrument? I’m particularly interested in whether an occasionally exceptionally “good” sounding tone is noticed among the separate notes, and whether, if noticed, the player would wish that all the notes would sound similarly. If such exceptional tones are experienced, where do they lie on the keyboard – at the low, mid, or top (pitch) end, and how would you describe this tone? Also, it would be interesting to know whether the instrument contains accordion-type reeds or traditional-type reeds.

 

In similar fashion, how many players/makers notice an occasional weak, or "bad" sounding tone among the separate notes, and if so, where on the keyboard does it occur, how would you describe the tone, and what kind of reeds are in the instrument? Also, if maintenance problems are known to cause such poor tones, please let us know, but I'd be particularly interested in those poor tones that have no obvious explanation.

 

I’d appreciate a sampling of comments on these questions, because I’m wondering how much the general tone of the free reed instrument can be improved, and I think it would be useful if we had an idea of the extremes of tones realizable. We might be able to identify features of instrument construction that influence these tones.

 

Best regards,

Tom

www.bluesbox.biz

[JimLucas]

How many concertina players/makers participating in this group have noticed variations in tone among the notes in his/her instrument?  ...    If such exceptional tones are experienced, where do they lie on the keyboard – at the low, mid, or top (pitch)...

I have noticed variations in tone quality, mainly on anglos with parallel rows of reed chambers, rather than radial chambers. The differences are most noticeable between two of the same note (e.g., two pull A's) under differenct buttons. I've always suspected the difference was due not to where they lie "on the keyboard", but to variation in chamber size and shape, which is easier to control and vary uniformly with pitch and reed size in the radial arrangement.

 

I’m particularly interested in whether an occasionally exceptionally “good” sounding tone is noticed among the separate notes, and whether, if noticed, the player would wish that all the notes would sound similarly. end, and how would you describe this tone?

"Good" and "bad" are matters of taste. Some prefer "mellow"; others prefer "edgy". I like different tone qualities for different kinds of music... or even for the same music, depending on my mood of the moment. But in all cases, I prefer uniform tone. When two of the same note sound differently, I'm more likely to want a full instrument with each kind of tone.

 

[side comment: Not sure why it never occurred to me before, but it might be possible to make musical use of the difference in tone, using the different tones in different places in the music. I think I'll experiment with that, though I don't know how useful it will ultimately be.]

 

In similar fashion, how many players/makers notice an occasional weak, or "bad" sounding tone among the separate notes, and if so, where on the keyboard does it occur, how would you describe the tone...?

Weak isn't the only kind of "bad". And might one person's "weak" be another person's "soft"? To me, "bad" is non-uniform. Again, I think that location on the keyboard is less likely to be a factor than internal factors. I'm not sure why you're concerned with individual notes that sound different, but apparently not entire instruments that sound uniformly "better" or "worse".

 

...and what kind of reeds are in the instrument?

I'm not sure why that should matter. Do you suspect that one of the reed types might be more subject to tonal variation than another?

[Robin Harrison]

Yes Tom , this is something I've noticed on my concertinas and it drives me nuts....you end up trying to avoid that one particular note

This was happening to one note on a treble Aeola and I suspected it was how the reed was set......I'm lucky enough to live close to a repair person (Reads Reeds in Toronto) ; he re-set the reed and it sounds like all the others now. A very simple fix. I can't find my copy of the excellent Dave Elliot repair book so I can't remember if he addresses re-setting reeds.

Regs Robin

BTW...your web site is fascinating !

[Frank Edgley]

Some of the reasons for tone variation can be as follows:

1) Where the vent holes lie in relation to the hand. Notes which have the vent holes under the hands are often less bright than the same note in a different location.

2) Draw or press. Draw notes often have a slightly different tone than the same note on the press.

3) Valves. Old stiff valves, which do not close fully or easily can affect the tone. This can make some notes sound different if some close easily and some do not.

4) Leaky chambers. This is a VERY common problem with English design anglos Englishes etc. Air leaks around the reed instead of passing through the reed. This is probably the leading cause of tone differences on old vintage instruments, especially Lachenal anglos, although it can occur with other even newer vintage-style makes. There are several causes:

(i)a missing support block. This causes air to escape over the dividers of the individual reed chambers. It can also cause a "double note", when enough air escapes to an adjacent chamber to cause the reed in that chamber to also sound, although more weakly.

(ii)a warped reed pan. This also results in the same problem. i.e. the gaskets on the tops of the chamber dividers do not fully come into contact with the sound board above, resulting in air escaping over the tops of the chambers, and the loss of efficiency of the reed(s). You will see dark stains on the tops of some gaskets where the air has been passing over the top of the gasket.

(iv) leaks between the reed pan and the bellows gasket. In this instance, the air escapes between the reed pan and the bellows gasket, and some does not go through the reed pan. You can see the darkening of the chamois gasket when you remove the reed pan.

(v) air escaping around the reed shoe (frame). Sometimes, the wood into which the reed shoe in inserted shinks in such a way that the reed becomes loose and will "buzz". At other times, the reed will not buzz, being held sufficiently not to do so, but air will still escape between the reed and the wood. If you remove the reed, you will sometimes see a dark discolouration of the wood in the reed slot. This shows where the air has been escaping.

 

The major problem with the vitage designed instruments is that they are very sensitive to wood shrinkage and warpage. Some makes were much more prone to these problems than others. I have seen very few Lachenal anglos (Englishes are another matter, usually) that do not have some warpage where the reed pan gaskets meet the action board. This is much more rare with Jeffries.

 

Anything which preventsany of the air from passing through the reeds will affect efficiency and the tone of the reed. If it is localised to a few reeds the tone difference will be all the more noticeable.

 

Inefficiency can also occur with Italian reeded instruments, but due to the different design, internally, the causes are a bit different. Time will tell whether these instruments will suffer the same problems, but if well made, I stongly believe they will not!

Edited November 23, 2004 by Frank Edgley

[ttonon]

Greetings and thanks for everyone's reply.

 

Frank, I appreciate your comments, only I'm more curious about variations in sound within a given instrument, and those variations which cannot be so surely explained away. Let's take a brand new instrument, with no obvious construction problems, are there occasional notes that sound particularly "good," or particularly "poor?" I suppose this is not likely in a good instrument, because the maker would probably strive to make the notes even sounding. My query then is directed to the instrument maker. Are there, during construction, certain reeds that sound, as example, particularly resonant, and perhaps so resonant that they stand out too much, and it becomes necessary to alter the cavity, or something else, in order to bring the sound of that note back to the fold? The same question applies to a particularly "poor-" or "weak-sounding" tone. In a sense, I'm looking for a problem to solve, for an unexplained phenomena with significant occurrence.

 

I'm not sure why you're concerned with individual notes that sound different, but apparently not entire instruments that sound uniformly "better" or "worse".

 

Hi Jim, thanks for your comments. I'm interested in this kind of arrangement because the bulk of the notes on the instrument can serve as a kind of control for exceptional occurrences. If we can single out a note or two, we might then be better able to understand the reasons behind the exceptions, using the rest of the instrument as a control.

 

Best regards,

Tom

[Frank Edgley]

Tom, I was commenting on differences within a given instrument. Also, they were concerned more with vintage-type instruments. All of the reasons I gave can affect only certain notes within an instrument, depending on the fault. New, or relatively new instruments are not totally immune to some of these problems. Radical changes in humidity can cause some of these. In addition to the causes I already mentioned, I would add:

(vi) the set of the reed. The elevation of the tongue of a particular reed can be greater than the same note on a different reed. This will affect not only volume, but the perception of brightness to a certain extent.

(vii) the direction of the bellows. There is a subtle difference in notes on the draw and the press.

Since your follow up question is addressed to concertina makers and specific to reeds, it would depend on whether the particular maker makes the reeds in the instrument. I would think that if a concertina maker makes his/her own reeds then consistency of the construction would be an issue. If all the "G" chambers are the same size and shape, and taking into consideration the slight muffling effect of the note in relation to the position of the hand, as well as the direction of the note, tone differences between the "G" notes are either due to inconsistent reed making, or a problem with construction resulting in loss of effieciency of the reed in its chamber.(see my previous post.) If, however, the tone difference occurs with all "G's" of the same pitch, then the problem is due to reed design. The solution would then be to change the reed design, communicate this to the reedmaker, or get a new reedmaker.

[richard]

Hello folks

 

Frank, thanks for your useful and informed comments on this subject.

 

I found some dark areas against the frame where the reed pan should fit snugly on my 20 button Lachenal.

 

I put some flannel there for the time being.

 

I wonder if I could glue a strip of chamois on the spot against the frame to permenantly tighten up the fit of the reed pan?

 

It seems the reed pan has shrunk and does not fit as snugly and air tight as is optimal?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

Edited November 30, 2004 by richard

[Frank Edgley]

If I'm correct, the gasket material lining the bellows frame is a chamois-like material. Carefully peel it back from the wood in the areas where you see the dark stain. This shouldn't bee too difficult unless someone has used a permanent-type glue there in the past. Then glue in a strip of business card stock. Don't use a permanent glue like white glue. A glue stick used for paper works fine and is easier to remove. Glue down the chamois and you should notice an improvement. Before gluing you should check to see whether one thickness of card stock is enough or too much. Usually one thickness is about right but you should check first so that you can add more or reduce the thickness of the shim. Good luck!

[richard]

Hello

 

I think I fixed my loose reed pan. It might have changed the tone some, but I'm not completely sure. It must have helped in some way though. I didn't use Frank's smart and simple repair suggestion. I did something less permanant and quicker. I think it works well. I got some thin chamois and cut small strips of it and placed it on the spot where the stain showed the air was leaking through, against the inside of the frame. I slipped in the reed pan against the chamois then pushed down the other side of the pan into place. It made the fit of the pan tighter. Maybe eventually I'll make a more permanent, less "rigged" fix.

 

Richard