Jeffries 45K Anglos

[ceemonster]

I have trouble deciphering the often hand-scripted layouts available for vintage concertinas, and am wondering about what notes a 45-key Anglo affords versus a 38/39. I would be very interested in an Anglo with expanded layout, but only if the extras weren't there just or mainly to take pitch range higher, i.e., added super-high notes above "High C" that I would never want or use. If, on the other hand, the extras were added directional options below "High C," I would find that very interesting....??

 

 

[JimLucas]

I have trouble deciphering the often hand-scripted layouts available for vintage concertinas, and am wondering about what notes a 45-key Anglo affords versus a 38/39. I would be very interested in an Anglo with expanded layout, but only if the extras weren't there just or mainly to take pitch range higher, i.e., added super-high notes above "High C" that I would never want or use. If, on the other hand, the extras were added directional options below "High C," I would find that very interesting....??

 

Definitely not mainly -- or even generally -- to take the pitch range higher. The extra buttons mainly seem to 1) provide more notes in both bellows directions, 2) fill in some missing notes in the low end of the left-hand range, 3) provide more left-hand notes also in the right hand (presumably for independent chord-vs.-melody playing), and/or 4) duplications to make fingering of certain note sequences more fluid (apparently a very personal matter).

 

BUT there's no "standard" layout beyond 38 buttons. Each of the few 45-button layouts I've handled or seen has been significantly customized. In fact, my own experience is that even 38's each tend to have significant custom variations.

 

Since I have such an instrument to sell (will I finally get my sales page finished this week?), I was actually planning to start a thread to discuss the benefits -- at least for certain playing styles -- of having those "extra" buttons. But to demonstrate what I've just said above, I should at least be able to post the layouts of three or four different 45-button instruments. Then maybe you and others (even myself?) could discuss the comparative pluses and minuses of each for your personal musical styles.

[ceemonster]

I was watching one on Mr. Gibb's site that was described as having a "great big voice," which is what I would be looking for. It seems to have been nabbed.... Button Box also has one in stock right now, with a Dipper bellows, a very pricey one. I have a wonderful Dipper Clare Anglo 30b, but actually have been starting to learn EC because of a desire to be able to play fluidly in more keys all in one instrument, and have been considering the relative voice personalities and lung power of Aeolas and Edeos (TTs). But I'm worried I won't find a metal-ended EC with the volume I want, the big-voiced Jeffries and Crabbs being the benchmark. So I've also been musing, what about acuiring a 45-key and learning to play it in the flat keys---but that would be, provided the added notes were actually additional directional choices in the ranges I play...I wouldn't have the tenor notes I'd love to have in a TT, but if one could really finger a 45k Anglo in just about all keys fluidly, I don't think I'd mind not having the low notes...It's really hard to know which path to take....

Edited July 15, 2013 by ceemonster

[Chris Ghent]

I have not seen large Jeffries anglos being played in a way that exploits the extra buttons for use in melody. People who do not use them for melody sometimes use them for chords. Some of this has to do with the way people come to a larger instrument. Many, especially in Ireland, start on a 30key instrument and never adapt.

 

With more advanced players I think the reason for not exploiting the extra buttons has to do with the nature of the extra notes. Any reeds in a Jeffries beyond 34 keys are mounted in the centre of the reedpan. This changes the tone of the notes, they lack higher partials. Putting a note from a central reed in a slow run of notes mainly drawn from the outer reeds does not work well, they sound too different.

 

Can I suggest you get your hands on a large Jeffries and try it out before buying? You might find your fluid runs are possible but still unsatisfying.

[ceemonster]

Once again, this site reveals itself as a central clearinghouse for fascinating and extremely useful knowedge.... I can't make a long trip just to try one out, though I might have considered it if a purchase was a real possibility. But I'm ready to take your word on this business about the extra notes lacking something in the bark-and-bite department. Well.....I'm going to have to find just the right metal-ended EC, I guess.

 

Perhaps there would be a market for a 45-key Anglo with all notes firing on full cylinders.....I would be happy to learn the extra fingering patterns if it meant having fluid flat keys all in one box. I don't care if all the chordal possibilities are there, just want to be able to do melodies fluidly and fast in a wider key spectrum. I think a TT is in my future, just have to find the right one....

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Please see attachments for typical Crabb 38 & 45 note allocations.

 

 

 

 

 

Note, these are typical allocations. Variations may be found as a result of original customer requirement or subsequent changes to suit subsequent owners.

 

Crabb C/G Anglos up to and including 40 buttons of the larger 6.25 inch AF size generally have all reeds fitted from the periphery of the reed pan. However, a difference in sound to some reeds may be experienced due to the siting of a reed and pad hole in relation to the postion of the hand.

 

Unfortunately, it was neccesary to accommodate some reeds on 38 + button earlier Crabb and most Jeffries models due to the attempt to cram the reeds into the standard 6 inch AF 30 button boxes.

 

Any attempt to fit all reeds from the periphery of the reed pan for a 45 button model would require a physically larger instrument which may affect management and not be acceptable.

 

Geoffrey

 

45 attachment edited to correct minor sequence numbering error that has been brought to my attention. Apologies for that. As said, these are typical Crabb allocations. It is impossible for me to comment on all other variations that may exist and I leave that to others, perhaps, in another thread.

 

Geoffrey

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2013 by Geoffrey Crabb

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Please see attachments for typical Crabb 38 & 45 note allocations.

 

38 ANGLO CG sequence.doc

 

45 ANGLO CG sequence 1.doc

 

Note, these are typical allocations. Variations may be found as a result of original customer requirement or subsequent changes to suit subsequent owners.

 

Crabb C/G Anglos up to and including 40 buttons of the larger 6.25 inch AF size generally have all reeds fitted from the periphery of the reed pan. However, a difference in sound to some reeds may be experienced due to the siting of a reed and pad hole in relation to the postion of the hand.

 

Unfortunately, it was neccesary to accommodate some reeds on 38 + button earlier Crabb and most Jeffries models due to the attempt to cram the reeds into the standard 6 inch AF 30 button boxes.

 

Any attempt to fit all reeds from the periphery of the reed pan for a 45 button model would require a physically larger instrument which may affect management and not be acceptable.

 

Geoffrey

 

45 attachment edited to correct 1 minor numbering error that has been brought to my attention. Appologies for that. As said, these are typical Crabb allocations. It is impossible for me to comment on all other variations that may exist and I leave that to others, perhaps, in another thread.

 

Geoffrey

 

 

 

 

Please note post edited

[ceemonster]

Well, once again--it's the Concertina Brain Trust on tap here....This is fascinating information.

 

Mulling this over---perhaps the solution is a custom instrument eliminating all high notes I wouldn't use; and elminate those couple of low notes on the left that I wouldn't use. Say, a custom 38-key. Maybe that would allow room for the directional choices I want in the ranges from "High C" downwards, to be placed so as to bark out at full volume.

 

What I really want is a metal-ended Crabb Tenor 48 that is as loud and powerful as the big-voiced, honky Jeffries and Crabb Anglos. a so-called "Tenor," not for song accompaniment, but in the most useful range for folk-dance and band music. There would be a big market for big-voiced ECs in this kind of note range. I would be 1st in line. I've been kind of shopping for a TT but only because Tenor 48s are so scarce. I would take a TT, but can't find one as big-voiced as a Jeffries or Crabb. Maybe I'll have to order my dream Tenor 48 from somebody open to making me a "Jeffries Anglo" sounding EC.

Edited July 16, 2013 by ceemonster

[chris]

I've always been puzzled by this eternal desire for more volume - I could understand it if it is to be a solo voice outdoors eg for morris dancing - but if you're playing in a group setting surely you should be playing at a volume that considers the other players but doesn't try to 'out volume' them. Surely if you are confident in your ability to play accurately you don't need to 'hear' your instrument - you 'know' that you're going to fit in

[David Levine]

I totally agree. I hate having to force the sound. I feel that trying to be heard reflects negatively on the phrasing and the lift. This is true of both flute and concertina. The music is best played from within the comfort zone and when you are "trying" for volume then you are probably reaching past what is comfortable.

[ceemonster]

i've always been puzzled by the assumption that wanting more volume means one is "forcing the sound" or "trying to 'out volume' " other players.

 

This is literally about, not being completely inaudible in a session or band setting, particularly in view of an instrument cost of thousands (and sometimes, thousands and thousands), not that it is any of your business. But for heaven's sake, let's take a Big Wet Noodle to the pipers for their emphasis on volume. Yeah, let's do that.

Edited July 17, 2013 by ceemonster

[chris]

So the more expensive the instrument is the more it deserves to be heard.

But if the player next to you wants his instrument to be individually audible and can't hear it because your expensive instrument has to be heard individually, his answer will be to play his instrument louder - then do you play louder still - if so you all end up trying to outdo each other and it ends up in an increasing spiral of volume and the music suffers

[Tradewinds Ted]

i've always been puzzled by the assumption that wanting more volume means one is "forcing the sound"

Agreed. The point of wanting a full voiced instrument is so that it can be heard while still playing within the comfort range of the instrument, NOT forcing the sound.

 

That said, I've never found that a concertina can't be heard when playing in a normal size group. It is always louder to the everyone else in the room - or even the next room - than what the player thinks. I suppose it is theoretically possible that I simply haven't been aware that a concertina was playing because I couldn't hear it?

 

Real quality to me is an instrument that has a good voice, with all the reeds speaking evenly in the quiet range. Much better for blending with other instruments, and essential to accompany singing.

 

Sorry I don't have any experience on instruments with 38-45 buttons, as I still have only a 20 button! (so far) But I would agree that more options on bellows direction in the mid-low range would be more valuable than extending the range any higher. I rarely want to use the top end of the range as it is.

[Chris Ghent]

I have a friend who recently bought two very loud ECs, both are TTs. He had for a long time a Model 22, itself a loud concertina, then found a late 30s Wheatstone six sided TT which had the distinctive tone of a plywood instrument but astonishing volume. Only a couple of months later he found a very rare (for appearance reasons) Edeophone TT which threatens your hearing in a reflective room. Having said that, neither instrument sounds like a Jeffries.

 

More importantly, although they work on the same principles, anglos and ECs have a difference which affects their sound. Not in tone but in the ability to create a lot of sound quickly. In both push and draw you can put a lot more pressure on the bellows quickly with an anglo than you can with an EC. A way to think about this is, the EC is opened and closed with the fingers, the anglo is opened and shut with the wrist/palms. This is in my opinion the biggest hurdle to making an EC sound like an anglo in Irish music. Sudden volume is more potentially percussive. I'm sure someone will write to say they can do this on their EC, but an Irish kid with a good concertina can do it casually all night without thinking (for better or worse).

 

Henrik Mueller might be interesting on this subject as he has an EC setup to play like an anglo.

[wayman]

A way to think about this is, the EC is opened and closed with the fingers, the anglo is opened and shut with the wrist/palms. This is in my opinion the biggest hurdle to making an EC sound like an anglo in Irish music. Sudden volume is more potentially percussive.

 

Now this is an interesting (and to my mind, astute!) observation. It reminds me of a workshop Bertram Levy gave in Amherst last year, where he spoke about how he uses different muscles in isolation to accomplish very specific aspects of playing the anglo.

 

Press buttons by finger movement alone (not in conjunction with any hand or wrist movement); limit hand movement to repositioning the fingers over different buttons; expand and contract the bellows by shoulder movement and using the back muscles (not elbow movement or arm muscles); and accentuate the sudden dynamics -- that is, the anglo punch -- with the wrists. (Did he use his elbows or arm muscles for anything? I forget.) It felt a lot like concertina yoga, or concertina belly dancing -- learn to isolate different muscle groups and move them, and only them, very intentionally.

 

One of Levy's big points was that reserving the wrist movement for that anglo punch was key. And Chris's observation that this is just not doable in the same way with an EC is quite interesting to me. (Of course, that's just Bertram Levy's style; others may have entirely different approaches to creating sudden dynamics and punch on the anglo, and of course anything that works and is comfortable to play is just as "correct" as any other!)

[SqueezeCat]

I have trouble deciphering the often hand-scripted layouts available for vintage concertinas, and am wondering about what notes a 45-key Anglo affords versus a 38/39. I would be very interested in an Anglo with expanded layout,

 

 

The C Jeffries CG Anglo with 45 keys I have may be of interest. This page also lists the keyboard layout, so you'll be able to have a look.

 

I started out with a 30 key Lachenal and moved to this instrument after hearing John Kirkpatrick play very lyrically on a 40 key instrument. The extra keys give a lot of choice for bellows direction and chord spelling... which is what I was looking for.

 

Since then, I've moved on to the Wicki/Hayden system, which I'm very much enjoying. (And as a result am looking to re-home my Anglos.)

 

In any case, if you're interested in trying out the C Jeffries CG Anglo, be in touch.

[ceemonster]

[More importantly, although they work on the same principles, anglos and ECs have a difference which affects their sound. ......... A way to think about this is, the EC is opened and closed with the fingers, the anglo is opened and shut with the wrist/palms. This is in my opinion the biggest hurdle to making an EC sound like an anglo in Irish music.]

 

Very interesting indeed. I'm not looking for an EC to articulate or phrase like an Anglo. Just looking for power, volume and cut. I play an exeptionally loud metal-ended Dipper Clare Anglo, but, exceptionally loud though it may be, it can merely be "heard" in a noisy session, and often barely so. Where I do my accommodating out of consideration for other players, is in a quiet setting. With a concertina, you need an exceptionally loud one just to be heard in many settings. That is what I need in an EC. But I see the point you're making, and I'm musing as to whether I have experienced this with bisonoric melodeon versus unisonoric accordion, both of which I play......Hard to analogize there because unisonorics are usually quite a bit larger with some more firepower. But a super-loud small melodeon will be at least as loud if not louder, it is true....

 

Wow, SquC, you've taken to Hayden such that you're going to relocate your Anglos? That is really saying something....

[Anglo-Irishman]

There does seem to be some sort of loudness fetish around here ...

Some deny this, saying that they merely want to be heard in a loud environment. I suppose they mean sessions, but a session (i believe) also has something to do with making music together, though not at the same level as in a group. And in a group situation, an individual instrument is loud enough when you notice when it stops playing, although you couldn't quite identify its contribution while it was playing.

 

If you want to hear your concertina among 6 other instruments, it must be at least as loud as all these 6 together - i.e. 6 times as loud as each other instrument, and that would be ridiculous! If you think you're too quiet, stop playing, and see if it makes a difference to the overall sound. If it does, you were loud enough.

 

Making one's presence felt has to do with more than sheer volume. A continuous tone will be swallowed up by any background, but a note that pulses will cut through. That's why opera singers and concert violinists have vibrato! A concertina has no vibrato, so the best was to assert its presence is to attack at least some notes sharply. The tones themselves are inconspicuous, but the attack is conspicuous.

And as has been pointed out, the Anglo player simply brings more muscle to bear on the bellows than the EC player can. What makes a motorbike faster than a car is not its top speed, but its acceleration. With the heel and back of the hand, the Anglo player can accelerate his bellows better than the EC player with two thumbs, and this acceleration translates to a strong pulse that makes the instrument audible over the background "noise."

 

So, ceemonster, EC may be the wrong direction for you!

 

Cheers,

John