Boney Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 This is another video and conversation topic for my concertina learning website, Concertina Corner. Perhaps this video will be a little less controversial, and more obviously an example of a "work in progress." Because the concertina has very little "attack" and "decay" time (the notes are pretty much on or off), and you can't slide or bend notes, it's common to use ornaments to add flavor and variety to the sound. The biggest difficulty for me is getting them quick and smooth enough so that they're not obtrusive...I feel like you want to hear the tune, not the ornaments. To this end, I try to play any "cuts" or "grace notes" with a brief brush of a button...so quick and light that if I make a mistake, the note will be nonexistent, instead of too long. No grace note is better than an obnoxious one! Here's I'm practicing a slippery stringband ragtime tune I got from a recording from the 1920s. The fiddler slides between notes at certain times, which I'm trying to approximate by adding in quick grace notes that fit between the melody notes. This clip gives some examples of where I think it works well, and where I think it doesn't. Turn on the annotations to see what I'm trying to do and when. I feel like when simulating a slide up into a note, adding a bit of space before the grace note tricks my ear into hearing it more like a true slide. A little punch of volume from the bellows also sometimes helps. I usually prefer sliding from a half-step below, but a whole step works too, and may sound better or be easier to finger in some instances. I also strive to not allow the grace note to overlap the notes before and after it, which makes a somewhat harsh sound. Even though I'm playing a duet, I think the techniques used and issues raised are almost exactly the same for an English concertina, and similar for an Anglo. Any comments or responding videos encouraged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Because the concertina has very little "attack" and "decay" time (the notes are pretty much on or off), and you can't slide or bend notes, it's common to use ornaments to add flavor and variety to the sound. Really? Outside the pipe ornaments adopted by Irish players I hadn't noticed it. The biggest difficulty for me is getting them quick and smooth enough so that they're not obtrusive...I feel like you want to hear the tune, not the ornaments. To this end, I try to play any "cuts" or "grace notes" with a brief brush of a button...so quick and light that if I make a mistake, the note will be nonexistent, instead of too long. No grace note is better than an obnoxious one! Assuming you are addressing concertina players at large and not just the Irish enthusiasts, that last line says it all for me, Jeff. Once in a while maybe. (although I reserve judgement even here) With any frequency, as in your example, awful. They don't add, they're distracting and annoying. I strongly feel you're heading off down a dead end with this idea. I'm sorry but you did ask for comments and if you started a generation of players wallowing in these cheeps and chirrups because they thought they were expected that would be a very retrograde step. Incidentally, I've complete faith that you could have added harmony to your 'speed examples' without losing pace. Why didn't you show them what a duet can really do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Because the concertina has very little "attack" and "decay" time (the notes are pretty much on or off), and you can't slide or bend notes, it's common to use ornaments to add flavor and variety to the sound. Really? Outside the pipe ornaments adopted by Irish players I hadn't noticed it. Really? I hear it a lot. I think it's more of a "traditional music" thing in general, not just Irish players. Accordion players do it a lot too. For two quick examples, Alan Day recently posted about his "note bending cheat," very similar to what I'm doing. And I hear Rachel Hall of Simple Gifts do grace notes often on the English, check for example "Bumblebee Sirba" on this page: http://www.simplegiftsmusic.com/listen.html With any frequency, as in your example, awful. You do realize I'm practicing the same few measures several times through, yes? It's not an example of how often I would use those techniques. It's an example of trying it several times in a row, with varying results. What do you think of the last "slide" example, the one on the video I said I liked? What about my "Baby Elephant Walk" video, where I use similar techniques many times? I'm sorry but you did ask for comments No apology necessary, I appreciate and respect your comments. Certainly things to think about. Incidentally, I've complete faith that you could have added harmony to your 'speed examples' without losing pace. Why didn't you show them what a duet can really do? Maybe I'll give that a try on a different tune sometime. But, doing anything with my left hand does affect greatly the speed and fluidity of my right hand, I find. I'm just not all that good a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Oh Yes ! I do like your "Baby Elephant Walk" it is one of my favorite Youtube videos and the humor of the playing comes through very nicely even with the extra humor of your wonderfull Pink Elephant dancer. Thankyou for being one of the people who has inspired me to try the Duet... I am really having fun with it. Geoff. Edited August 31, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Thank you (both) for pointing me at that pink elephant video, which I really enjoy too... So you are the guy playing that "whistling rufus" so nicely, having therewith delayed my overdue change of course from the Anglo to the EC considerably! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I've got no argument with the Baby Elephant Walk; that's a favourite of mine too (and Whistling Rufus is STILL one of my all time concertina favourites, by the way) the grace notes give it a pleasing jazzy feel. Clifton Chenier used to do that sort of thing a lot i seem to remember? But I think that's a very specific case. There's a definitions matter going on here. The Bumblebee thing, having just given it a whirl, has to have the grace notes; it's a defining part of the tune. That's fine and I have no trouble with it. If that is what you are mostly talking about I withdraw all objections. It's the idea that you are going to start adding lots of extra notes gratuitously and routinely as you play 'because they are needed to define the notes' that I'm at odds with, because I think that's wrong. I'm not sure this is much of a discussion frankly. Presumably you wouldn't have butchered that jolly ragtime tune to that degree except for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm not sure this is much of a discussion frankly. Presumably you wouldn't have butchered that jolly ragtime tune to that degree except for example? Of course not, if I understand you correctly. I use more grace notes on Baby Elephant Walk than I do on Little Black Mustache. I don't think I play any in the A part of the tune (which isn't part of the video). But as the first word of the post, and the video say, this was about practicing such things. I've repeated phrases over and over, and left in some not-very-good parts which of course ruins the tune. Which is a big part of the point, once again. It's easy to do many takes, and post a version without many mistakes, and be done with it. That's what I've done in the past. This "project" is more like sitting next to someone showing you little unfinished snippets of things he's working on, warts and all, to stimulate discussion and experimenting. I see so many people talking about techniques they're working on, but without hearing (and preferably seeing) them, I really don't know if they're just spouting theory or are making valid points. Maybe I should try showing techniques in complete isolation, as well as in a tune. I have an idea: Is there anything anyone here would specifically like to see me record and discuss? I have a new (to me) ornament I've tried in an Irish tune, but I have a feeling I'd be ripped to shreds for that one. Maybe something comparing ideas I use to try to balance chords and melody? That's something else I often hear talked about, but I don't think I've ever heard an audio example of different approaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I have an idea: Is there anything anyone here would specifically like to see me record and discuss? I have a new (to me) ornament I've tried in an Irish tune, but I have a feeling I'd be ripped to shreds for that one. Maybe something comparing ideas I use to try to balance chords and melody? That's something else I often hear talked about, but I don't think I've ever heard an audio example of different approaches. Yes, this would be most interesting. The gracenote topic is one I am more than familiar with from ITM ,transfering Piping techniques onto Concertina (or not) . As a starter on Duet I am finding that my chord work sounds too heavy for the melody. I have read about playing the chords short and keeping the melody notes as long as possible and I've listened carefully to Ralph Jordan's CD where he appears to be sparing with the the left hand in the 'short and neat' way. Now I am trying to select the best two note chords (as in choice of the two notes and the best inversion) by ear and experimenting with the sounds. Any imput on this subject is going to get my ear... thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 [i'm sorry but you did ask for comments and if you started a generation of players wallowing in these cheeps and chirrups because they thought they were expected that would be a very retrograde step.]....ya know, i have read and re-read the original post on this thread, and i don't see anything about anything being de rigeur or expected. and, yes, even the cleanest, sparest ornamentation i've heard (my own favorite kind), is still ornamentation, and i've heard "some" from just about all concertina players in all traditions outside of classical. even there, i've heard some, but i've heard it less. i don't know what it is about boney and his enterprise that seems to telegraph "hi, i'm a pinata, proceed accordingly" but..... the idea that someone would even need to worry about being "ripped to shreds" for posting their own personal ideas and arrangements in a non-proscriptive, non-normative way, is wearisome and depressing beyond belief.... i enjoyed this clip and find the whole thing interesting. i didn't hear, "this must be done." i heard, ''i prefer a certain ornamentation aesthetic and here are some attempts at injecting some ornamentation into my duet adventure, in that vein.'' i personally could barely hear the ornaments here, and hear them as a long way from the cheep/chirrup variety...they remind me of the kind the irish players mary macnamara or dymphna o'sullivan do, which is very much the ballpark i like.... yeah, the "baby elephant walk" is a hit in this quarter as well....speaking of which, i also note an abundance of concertina youtube clips, including on crane and anglo, featuring the theme of something called "monkey island." a google search says this is a video game? anyway, this theme music is great and sounds fab on concertina.....i'm gonna learn it, too, on cba and concertina.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) [As a starter on Duet I am finding that my chord work sounds too heavy for the melody......Any imput on this subject is going to get my ear... thanks in advance] are you referring to playing irish dance music on your dut or other styles? because if it's irish, keeping the chords very light or reducing them to little taps made up of a couple of notes rather than a full chord fits with the style anyhow. there's no law that just because it is a duet, there has to be full chordal activity going on on the left side.... or would you refer to other styles, the kind duet is often used for, like those boney is playing, or those on "eloise"? this lovely cd just arrived at my house last week. i am enjoying the playing and the selections very much. but having said that....it has really brought home to me, that i'm not so sure i'm personally liking the concertina-reed sound for genres outside of irish. applying this to your post---it is precisely in the area of how the CHORDS sound that i feel this way. mulling further, what it really is, is that, i actually do like the concertina reed sound for single-melody music in all kinds of genres rather than just irish, but i'm not caring for the concertina reed sound for chords-and-melody-together, a la duet. and i wonder if that has something to do with the dissatisfaction you are experiencing with how your chords sound with melody? researching some of this recently, i found a thread here where somebody asked for tips on where to find klezmer/eastern european music on ec concertina. through that, i purchased two "simple gifts" cds with ec player rachel hall in the lineup, and i love what she is doing on ec with klezmer, bulgarian, irish, scandinavian, etc. but the chordal work is extremely light. either nonexistent, or just a little touch here and there. it's mostly melody-line, and i really like it. but i'm not taking well to the concertina reed sound for full-chord accompaniment to a melody line. i'm discovering i prefer the accordion-reed sound for that. this has me wondering if one of bob tedrow's accordion-reeded haydens would be better for me.....i see that stagi offers a hand reed upgrade for their ec 48 and ec 56 models. i wonder if one could custom order hand reeds in one of their haydens to give the idea a whirl at a cheaper price than the tedrow haydens, which seem to run about Five Large....i guess now i'm wild to get a concertina-reeded ec and a high-grade accordion-reeded hayden..... Edited September 2, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 featuring the theme of something called "monkey island" Yes indeed, , done with that weakly sounding Stagi... Concerning the ornamentation, I agree on the fact, that ornamentations and grace notes do appear in so many types of music - it's just a matter of the style... of the ornamentation itself then. And Jeff/Boney: I hear him featuring or proposing a "new" glissando type use of grace note(s) through his exercise, and I take that as a suggestion well worth considering... Will hardly suit for "ITM", but somewhere else, I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) [As a starter on Duet I am finding that my chord work sounds too heavy for the melody......Any imput on this subject is going to get my ear... thanks in advance] are you referring to playing irish dance music on your dut or other styles? because if it's irish, keeping the chords very light or reducing them to little taps made up of a couple of notes rather than a full chord fits with the style anyhow. there's no law that just because it is a duet, there has to be full chordal activity going on on the left side.... or would you refer to other styles, the kind duet is often used for, like those boney is playing, or those on "eloise"? this lovely cd just arrived at my house last week. i am enjoying the playing and the selections very much. but having said that....it has really brought home to me, that i'm not so sure i'm personally liking the concertina-reed sound for genres outside of irish. applying this to your post---it is precisely in the area of how the CHORDS sound that i feel this way. mulling further, what it really is, is that, i actually do like the concertina reed sound for single-melody music in all kinds of genres rather than just irish, but i'm not caring for the concertina reed sound for chords-and-melody-together, a la duet. and i wonder if that has something to do with the dissatisfaction you are experiencing with how your chords sound with melody? I have only been playing the Maccann now for 4 months but not for Irish music... I do that on the EC and have done so for close on 40 years. I took up the Maccann after a visit to my old friend Ralph and having enjoyed his CD so much. Oh why did I not take up the Duet at the time I sold Ralph his first Maccann?.. I don't know really. So I am trying to use the Duet for other types of music, as you say in the manner of Ralpie and Boney. At the moment mainly the Centre France Traditional dance music; Waltzes, Mazurkas, Scottishes,Borreés etc.I was looking for more chord work from my EC and thought that to divide the work over two keyboards (as on a Duet) would make good sense. At the moment it appears to me that my chords, on the Duet are too loud (as well as being too big and inappropriate with too many changes according to my wife) so I am hoping for, and getting, from the more experienced, some good ideas. Playing chords on the EC (which I do but very sparingly in ITM) I have the same feeling as you about the sound of Concertina reeds. This is why I have moved away from Equal Temperament tuning... so that I can use close harmonies more sweetly even when it limits the keys I can play in. For the French Danceband I am using plenty of chord work on EC. I have not moved away from Equal Temperament on the Maccann (yet) because; one can space the chords out, away fom the melody thus avoiding (to some extent) any harsh tone clashes( I hope) and because the Duets do not have the repeated Ab/G#'s and Eb/D#'s which help on the EC to space out some of the sweeter temperaments with a much reduced curtailing of available key signatures. I am with you, Ceemonster, in the application of sparing amounts of Grace notes in ITM. Edited September 2, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 speaking of which, i also note an abundance of concertina youtube clips, including on crane and anglo, featuring the theme of something called "monkey island." a google search says this is a video game? Ah, I spent my youth playing all of the Monkey Island games. It's the story of intrepid Guybrush Treepwood, a young fellow who's dreaming of becoming a pirate and is willing to try very hard (and do anything) to achieve his goal. To become a pirate you need to duel the famous Swordmaster, and the fight is a fight of insults: everytime you insult the opponent and they can't reply to you, you win a point, and vice-versa... so you're going around an island challenging random pirates and losing many fights but you slowly add insults to your repertoire, and the best reply to them, and when you're ready you can beat the 'Swordmaster' :-) Most of the great music from the game is now hardcoded to my brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) mi: sheesh, and here i fancied myself such an insufferable pop-culture-literate tragic hipster, and all this time, oblivious to "monkey island"....the music is really wonderful, better than the "amelie" theme music, which also sounds lovely on concertina and of course accordion. perhaps not quite at the level of the goran bregovic stuff, but right up there... [the Centre France Traditional dance music; Waltzes, Mazurkas, Scottishes,Borreés etc]...these genres, with things such as musette, tango, rom/klezmer, etc, are all, with irish, very much the vein i enjoy, and it's for these ventures that seem to have returned to unisonoric accordion, in this case cba, because i do like the way (tasteful) chordal accompaniment sounds on accordion, and am not warmng to it with concertina reeds. the problem is, the shimmering star in the distance of being able to play this music as well as irish on a small, lightweight magic-box, i.e., concertina, retains an irresistible pull. we'll see.... this anonymous and generous maestro features in many solo bandoneon clips posted apparently for learners, and quite frankly, i like these so-called student arrangements better than some of the heavily chordal, multi-voiced tango arrangements the "advanced" players often do.....anyway, he handles the bass-chord thing by doing them very quickly and lightly. there are many gorgeous clips of this gentleman in this series, all handling the bass chords very lightly and subtly. it seems to me he achieves it not just in how he plays it, but in not fully voicing the chord. is this what your wife meant? i agree. skeletal chords sound much better on concertina, i think, at least, when there is also a melody afoot.....i find the many entries in the series of this gent's clips by punching in "bandoneon solo," and spend an inordinate amount of time watching them... these arrangements would sound great on a duet, imho... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-U9ardJOsc Edited September 3, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 mi: sheesh, and here i fancied myself such an insufferable pop-culture-literate tragic hipster, and all this time, oblivious to "monkey island"....the music is really wonderful, better than the "amelie" theme music, which also sounds lovely on concertina and of course accordion. perhaps not quite at the level of the goran bregovic stuff, but right up there... In case you're curious, here's the short biography of Michael Land, the composer of most of Monkey Island's music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) this anonymous and generous maestro features in many solo bandoneon clips posted apparently for learners, and quite frankly, i like these so-called student arrangements better than some of the heavily chordal, multi-voiced tango arrangements the "advanced" players often do.....anyway, he handles the bass-chord thing by doing them very quickly and lightly. there are many gorgeous clips of this gentleman in this series, all handling the bass chords very lightly and subtly. it seems to me he achieves it not just in how he plays it, but in not fully voicing the chord. is this what your wife meant? i agree. skeletal chords sound much better on concertina, i think, at least, when there is also a melody afoot.....i find the many entries in the series of this gent's clips by punching in "bandoneon solo," and spend an inordinate amount of time watching them... these arrangements would sound great on a duet, imho... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-U9ardJOsc Thanks very much for this link, Ceemonster. So many great examples of snappy chording. He appears to play only on the pull... does this suggest he is using a Unisonic Bandoneon or am I just ignorant of these things ? There are plenty of Unisonoric Bandoneons (available secondhand) here in France which ,I assume, have a keyboard layout that is not unlike the CBA... could this be what is used in these videos ? Another point, for me, that is demonstrated in these videos; When one plays the EC it is "one keyboard" operated by the two hands, therefore I find that when I play Legato or Stacato it is both hands that are needed (on most occasions) to produce the desired effect. Now,on the Duet I have to change my way of playing to seperate the action of each hand so as to give the melody its full note lengths whilst cutting the chord notes a good bit shorter.... hmm re-training the old dog !! Edited September 3, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 [He appears to play only on the pull.. does this suggest he is using a Unisonic Bandoneon] Yes, but not in the way I believe you mean This gentleman is playing a bisonoric bandoneon, as are the others in those mouth-watering piles on either side of him, and giving that air button quite a workout. Many, perhaps the great majority of, the Argentine tangueros play tango this way on bisonoric, and many of them would insist that it is "the" way to play, and would counsel against what I and I assume you might expect to be the correct way of playing bisonoric, i.e., on both push and pull. You can see ten tuxedoed bandoneonistos in a row doing it in unison in some of the Y clips of the big orchestras.... There is another school of thought (I suspect out of the bando's original home, the German pedagogues and virtuosos), that would term the pull-only school to be nonsense. I saw an extreme post on one thread regarding this issue to the effect that the rationales for pull-only were excuses for laziness and reluctance to put in the work and time to learn to play the thing fluidly in both directions. I'm not taking a position myself, just reporting.... There are indeed Argentine players who have mastered a formidable fluency in bidirectional playing, but the pull-only way seems to be more the done thing. The rationale of the pull-only school would be that it swings along the "nyah" of tango better, or something like that. When I said, "yes," as to whether he is using a unisonoric, I was being waggish about what does come to mind, which is that by playing mostly in only one direction, one is kinda making the instrument into a de facto unisonoric, which would seem to vitiate the famous Argentine dismissiveness toward the unisonoric bandoneons, which were more a Parisian innovation. There is an abundance of unisonorics in Paris? I would kind of like to mess with one, have been perusing the Crosio Fratellis, because there did seem to be quite a few of them around on the French sale boards. Both Richard Galliano and Olivier Mansoury play unisonorics, as well as that young William Sabatier, and at the end of the day, provided that genuine bando reeds are in play, I don't really see any noticeable gap in the swing or articulation between the two.... Somewhere Harry Geuns has posted a treatise arguing that C system (or C system-based) bando setups such as that on the unisonorics is not optimal without the thumb in play, and making a case for the ergonomics of that new one where you wrap your arms around it and play on front panels, which does not appeal to me. But Mansoury and Sabitier don't seem to be suffering any in terms of virtuosity on their conventional unisonorics....Oh, I also recall there is a "Peguri" unisonoric system and a "Caliero" system, but I can't remember the difference. They are both C-system based, as you said... yes, the thing with two hands doing different articulation is quite challenging, but just think how salutory it must be for the neural pathways....i suspect you will hit a sweet spot on duet that will deliver a swellegant balance between bass and melody.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) Again many thanks Ceemonster, for the fine explaination of this Bandoneon style. If only I can get somewhere down this road with the Maccann I will be very happy. Yes again some fine "brain training" is in order... I am sure it does us much good and keeps the Dementia at bay. Many Bandoneons for sale at this French site; www.leboncoin.fr Edited September 4, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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