Anglo layout : new idea

[Azalin]

so, if i were to go from A to Bb on the right hand, i would use my middle finger for A, and my ring finger for Bb, which is bringing my ring finger temporarily into "second position".

 

I'm not sure if you play that Gm tune, but I just recorded it for example purpose. I use my ring finger for RH Bb, but use my pinkie for the RH C row pull A. I don't think I could play that tune with the same flow using my middle finger for A, but I haven't really tried. It just come to me very naturally to use the pinkie for the pull A, it makes it much easier and allows me to keep using fingers that are in the same area. Would you do it differently?

 

Gm reel

[david fabre]

About playing in octaves in the key of D : sure on the G/D I would do it in the same way as you.

I just realised that in my first comment, I thought you were speaking about the fingerings on a C/G...

Sorry for bringing the trouble. Actually, even though I mostly play G/D these days I'm still thinking of it as a C/G, and often get confused when trying to describe what notes I'm playing...

My point was that, if you look at the C/G version of my layout, i have c#' / d' on the same button, which simplifies octave playing in D (which actually means playing in A on the G/D...)

 

About tunes requiring the bflat-a sequence, I also normally use the a on the C row like Azalin does.

I do that a lot for french tunes in the key of Dmin (which means Amin on the G/D !)

[david fabre]

 

Gm reel

 

 

Very nice !

I'm playing this one in Aminor ; should try Gmin also (some fiddlers in my area seem to prefer this)

[david_boveri]

and had no strength in my right hand pinkie, which I never used in Irish music until recently.

 

I'm surprised to hear that! I use my right hand pinkie mainly in Gm tunes to switch from A to Bb, from the pinkie A to the accidental row Bb with my ring finger. Trying to use the other A on the RH G row would be much more difficult IMH.

 

actually, noel hill taught me to grab for that note with my ring finger. so, if i were to go from A to Bb on the right hand, i would use my middle finger for A, and my ring finger for Bb, which is bringing my ring finger temporarily into "second position". what is the layout of your right hand? i have a carroll preffered layout, which is a modified jeffries style. since a jeffries' Bb is on the fourth button, it allows one to use the A pull in the G row. if you happen to have a Bb on the fourth button, i'd say try grabbing it with your ring finger, rather than your pinkie!

 

But you misread my post a bit, I'm saying I'm going from the RH "C row" A, using my pinkie, and then playing the Bm on the accidental row using the ring finger. It seems the only difference with you is that I pull the A on the RH C row using my pinkie, and you pull it on the RH G row using the middle finger... Would you suggest using the middle finger for pull A instead of pinkie for pull A because the middle finger is a stronger finger, and also that read being closer to the top, will sound brighter? I just tried in a tune I just learned and using the middle finger even seems a bit easier! Keep it mind that I usually always use pull A on the RH G row with my middle finger, I only use pinkie A when I need to play that Bm just above it using my ring finger.

 

yeah, i understood that you were using your pinkie for the A, but just didn't make it clear that the point was recommending the middle finger A, that is something i would not tend to do, unless i was playing in the C row (as opposed to merely playing in C), or using it for it's particular tone color. sometimes i like to double the A's on the right hand for the sound of it, but i don't do that too often yet, as i am just starting to add it to my repertoire.

 

you got the reasoning behind it dead on--the middle finger is a stronger finger, and the tone of the note is brighter and clearer. in general, my philosophy is to avoid crossing over fingers unless you have a good reason to do it. on the right hand, playing the A on the pinkie followed by Bb on the ring finger causes you to have to cross fingers for no good reason. the other A is also on the pull, on a stronger finger, sounds better, is the note you're used to using, and doesn't make you cross your fingers on a jeffries' layout. i am not going to say not to cross fingers ever, for example low D pull to C# push on left hand is in my opinion preferable to using a push D on the pinkie.

 

 

so, if i were to go from A to Bb on the right hand, i would use my middle finger for A, and my ring finger for Bb, which is bringing my ring finger temporarily into "second position".

 

I'm not sure if you play that Gm tune, but I just recorded it for example purpose. I use my ring finger for RH Bb, but use my pinkie for the RH C row pull A. I don't think I could play that tune with the same flow using my middle finger for A, but I haven't really tried. It just come to me very naturally to use the pinkie for the pull A, it makes it much easier and allows me to keep using fingers that are in the same area. Would you do it differently?

 

Gm reel

 

it sounds a lot like a couple of tunes i know. my brain wants to think it's either splendid isolation or mrs. lawries, but i know it's not, . i have a major project due in less than 24 hours, so i am going to commit my energy to that right now. once it is done, i will learn the tune, and tell you how i play it.

 

as an aside, i just started re-learing the laird of drumblair in Bb, and i definitely was using the middle finger A on the G row exclusively, even though i was switching over to the second position very often. for example, in the sequence Bb F Eb, i play the Bb with the ring finger, F with the middle, and Eb with the pointer. in the characteristic rocking back and forth between Bb and A, i use the middle finger.

[Azalin]

in general, my philosophy is to avoid crossing over fingers unless you have a good reason to do it. on the right hand, playing the A on the pinkie followed by Bb on the ring finger causes you to have to cross fingers for no good reason. the other A is also on the pull, on a stronger finger, sounds better, is the note you're used to using, and doesn't make you cross your fingers on a jeffries' layout. i am not going to say not to cross fingers ever, for example low D pull to C# push on left hand is in my opinion preferable to using a push D on the pinkie.

 

But what do you exactly call "crossing finger" ? That RH pull A on the C row, using the pinkie, is where it should be, it's not changing position... The ring finger on the Bb is changing position, yes, but so is playing it the way you do too. So I don't understand why you'd call my method 'crossing fingers' but not yours, which also uses the ring finger on the RH Bb?

 

I just feel it requires much less effort to use the RH C row pull A than the standard one on the RH G row when playing G minor tunes and using that accidental Bb. But I understand why you'd want to stick to the standard RH pull A too!

[Azalin]

 

Gm reel

 

 

Very nice !

I'm playing this one in Aminor ; should try Gmin also (some fiddlers in my area seem to prefer this)

 

Thanks! I think the name is "Eileen Curran" now that I think of it. Gmin (Gdor!) has always been the standard key for this tune for me (and I think, the key in which the tune was composed). I think the Am version is just an adapted version to allow flute players and pipers to join :-) The same with the Em version of Broken Pledge, it should be Dm! Anyhow, that tune in Gdor is great practice for those Bb.

[david fabre]

 

Thanks! I think the name is "Eileen Curran" now that I think of it.

 

I learned it in the key of A from a recording by Bertram Levy on the "anglo international" CD.

His version is not really "Traditional Irish" but still very nice.

[Azalin]

 

Thanks! I think the name is "Eileen Curran" now that I think of it.

 

I learned it in the key of A from a recording by Bertram Levy on the "anglo international" CD.

His version is not really "Traditional Irish" but still very nice.

 

Here's a clip of one of my favorite concertinist, Claire Keville, playing the tune with Pat O'Connor in a session a few ago in Ennis. The second tune is "The girl that broke my heart" I think. You don't get much more 'traditional' than that! ;-)

[Alan Day]

 

Thanks! I think the name is "Eileen Curran" now that I think of it.

 

I learned it in the key of A from a recording by Bertram Levy on the "anglo international" CD.

His version is not really "Traditional Irish" but still very nice.

 

Here's a clip of one of my favorite concertinist, Claire Keville, playing the tune with Pat O'Connor in a session a few ago in Ennis. The second tune is "The girl that broke my heart" I think. You don't get much more 'traditional' than that! ;-)

Smashing bit of playing

Thanks

Al

[david fabre]

I recently had a workshop with Claire (in St Sever, SW France).

A very enjoyable and inspiring experience !

We were only two pupils in the concertina class, so it was nearly an individual class...

[david_boveri]

EDIT: when i initially uploaded the concertina pictures, the had been swapped by my software, which explains subsequent confusion and discussion. below i prove that it's not my fault, :-P

 

in general, my philosophy is to avoid crossing over fingers unless you have a good reason to do it. on the right hand, playing the A on the pinkie followed by Bb on the ring finger causes you to have to cross fingers for no good reason. the other A is also on the pull, on a stronger finger, sounds better, is the note you're used to using, and doesn't make you cross your fingers on a jeffries' layout. i am not going to say not to cross fingers ever, for example low D pull to C# push on left hand is in my opinion preferable to using a push D on the pinkie.

 

But what do you exactly call "crossing finger" ? That RH pull A on the C row, using the pinkie, is where it should be, it's not changing position... The ring finger on the Bb is changing position, yes, but so is playing it the way you do too. So I don't understand why you'd call my method 'crossing fingers' but not yours, which also uses the ring finger on the RH Bb?

 

I just feel it requires much less effort to use the RH C row pull A than the standard one on the RH G row when playing G minor tunes and using that accidental Bb. But I understand why you'd want to stick to the standard RH pull A too!

 

sorry, the term was supposed to mean that your fingers have to cross over each other. for example, on the right hand if you play B natural on the pull C row, and then C# on a the first button with your middle finger, i would call this "crossing your fingers," similarly to crossing your fingers for good luck, or the letter R in American Sign Language:

Photo on 2011-01-26 at 00.14 by consairtin, on Flickr

 

personally i would not say that i used the term "cross fingering," because that sounds too much like it would be referring to "across the rows fingering." it is nit picky, but i instead use the verb to describe the action. i guess if i had to come up with a noun phrase, it would be "knotted fingering," because it's like tying your fingers in knots,

 

my aversion is not to changing position, but rather to reaching over one finger to get another. to demonstrate, i have taken two pictures of what it looks like when i rest my fingers on both Bb and A at the same time. this may seem artificial, but when i play, i tend to get my fingers "ready" by having them above the upcoming buttons several notes early, so it is a real concern.

 

this picture is the A played by the pinkie in the C row, with Bb played by the ring finger:

Bb with A on C row by consairtin, on Flickr

 

to me, this is not preferable. i am not going to say that i find it prohibitively difficult, but unnecessarily so. in general i do not like crossing my fingers by default, unless there are no other options. to me it is just too awkward, when there is a much more relaxed alternative. also i believe that by reaching OVER the pinkie with your ring finger, you are reducing the speed and maneuverability of the pinkie finger. again, this is not a deal breaker, but definitely not preferable, especially in melody notes.

 

compare that picture to this:

Bb with A on G row by consairtin, on Flickr

 

notice how relaxed and natural my fingers look. it may even look like i am not touching both buttons, but i am. so, i guess the question becomes why do i prefer a relaxed hand position? for one, my hand is free to do so many other things so much more quickly. also, in the "knotted" example above, how would i cut the A if i so desired? in this "relaxed" position, i can grab the C natural to cut the A at any point (or in the middle of the note, for that matter).

 

i suppose i prefer a relaxed hand position because of my background in flute playing.

always taught me that your hand should be relaxed when it is in "home position." he told me to put my hands to my sides, then put them above the keys (or holes) on my flute. any hand position which requires much movement from your "relaxed at side" hand position is too tense, will cause arm strain, and slow you down.

 

i think it s a good philosophy to go by on the concertina as well.

Edited January 26, 2011 by david_boveri

[Azalin]

notice how relaxed and natural my fingers look.

 

Hmmmmm, you are telling me you've got a Bb on your RH G row? Well, I don't have it on mine! There is ONE reed that doesn't work, the 4th button on the push, is that my missing Bb? Darn, maybe I should spend more time exploring my instrument

 

I have another Bb on an extra button on the RH, but it's on the push and doesn't apply easily to my current tunes.

 

About the relaxed position, I totally agree. I think not only for an improved playability, but to avoid potential physical problems in the future...

[david fabre]

David_B :

I had a very hard time trying to follow your explanations... Until realizing that the pictures you posted are actually inverted as in a mirror ! At first It looked like you were showing the left side of the instrument...

 

For me, the bb is on the 3rd button, outer row (Wheatstone layout) and it probably makes it easier to play it along with the a on the middle row.

[david_boveri]

First things first: I apologize for the confusion. I thought something was wrong while posting the reversed picutres, but I doubted myself. Upon investigation, it seems it was a software issue.

 

For proof, I took a picture of me holding a piece of paper, with the word “Test” on it, with the Right and Left sides labeled. For some reason, iMovie capture shows the correct orientation, but photoboth shows a flipped image. Both programs are open at the same time… and I bet you can guess which one I used last night to take my picture! I have edited my post above to include the more accurate pictures.

 

Screen shot 2011-01-26 at 5.07.08 PM by consairtin, on Flickr

 

 

notice how relaxed and natural my fingers look.

 

Hmmmmm, you are telling me you've got a Bb on your RH G row? Well, I don't have it on mine! There is ONE reed that doesn't work, the 4th button on the push, is that my missing Bb? Darn, maybe I should spend more time exploring my instrument

 

I have another Bb on an extra button on the RH, but it's on the push and doesn't apply easily to my current tunes.

 

About the relaxed position, I totally agree. I think not only for an improved playability, but to avoid potential physical problems in the future...

 

That's the right side of the instrument. Sorry! See above.

 

Also, the Bb is on the accidental row. The confusion is my fault. I accidentally wrote "... with G row A", which is syntactically correct, but semantically confusing. I have changed it in the post above to "... with A in G row,” which is much clearer.

 

 

David_B :

I had a very hard time trying to follow your explanations... Until realizing that the pictures you posted are actually inverted as in a mirror ! At first It looked like you were showing the left side of the instrument...

 

For me, the bb is on the 3rd button, outer row (Wheatstone layout) and it probably makes it easier to play it along with the a on the middle row.

 

The instrument is not in a mirror. See the beginning of the post, my apologies.

 

Personally, I might play the Bb along with A in the G row, but that is because I play Jeffries layout. My G# is on that same button that your Bb is (but on the push), and I find that I can have problems with it. if I am not focusing (yet I still use A on the G row). So, if I was actually playing the Wheatsone layout for the long term, I would probably do the same as you!

 

Actually, this discussion has me thinking... I just tried out Foxhunters in A, to see if perhaps G# and A might be easier with the A in the Crow, with my pinkie. The phrase I am thinking about is the Third Part of the tune, and goes:

 

eaag a2fa... (abc notation, so G and F are sharp in the key of A, and it is the second octave. For the tune in G, see here)

 

I thought it was nice, but I tried switching into second position and using the same buttons to see how it went. I think I like it! Whenever I try to play Foxhunters in A quickly in a session, I end up getting all tied up, as I normally use the G row A with 3rd Finger G# push. I am going to try it out this way and see if I like it:

 

second position G# with ring finger A on C row by consairtin, on Flickr

 

The reason I like it in second position is that it allows me to grab the B pull with my pinkie, in order to do a cut in the middle of the A. I'll have to try this out for a few weeks and see if I want to keep it in my repertoire of options,.

Edited January 27, 2011 by david_boveri

[Azalin]

Thanks Dave, was going crazy to find that Bb on the RH G row haha! It's so complicated to discuss about concertinas, always need to specify the side, button number, push or pull... Today when I was practicing a couple of Gm tunes I did alternate between using the RH pull A on the C row with my pinkie, and using my middle finger on the G row... I still prefer my pinkie method, it seems more relaxed, the way my hand is shaped maybe, but I will give your method more try... and I might need to use both methods anyway, certain tunes require different techniques.

 

There's a Gm tune composed by Paddy Kelly I learned recently, and two composed by Tommy Coen's (I think!), they're awesome tunes! But my favorite recent Gm tune I'm ashamed to say I learned from the most recent Kane Sisters CD, it's a tune composed by Paddy O'Brien (The younger County Offaly box player, not the other famous one!). It's very satisfying because one of the reasons I switched from playing whistle to playing concertina is to be able to play those tunes, one day... it finally starts paying off, like a long term investment...

[ceemonster]

[the reed plates have different sizes, so they cannot be switched easily and in a reversible way.]

 

exactement. unfortunately, the special layout must be ordered when the concertina is made. i personally have been working off and on for a couple of years on a design omitting all notes above "high C" and using those slots to make more below-high-C notes bidirectional. for irish folk music, i need nothing above high-C. i loathe the idea of having to schlep around (not to mention pay for) more than one concertina in different keys, and i loathe playing my c/g in keys in which you are locked into "cross-row" phrasing because you don't have at least the crucial tonic and fifth bidirectionally. the key capability of the 30-key can be greatly expanded by trashing the notes above high-C; losing that super-low left-hand C, and that super-low left-hand E (your pull-middle-C goes in one of those spots with a slight shift in the current notes on those buttons); and also by losing the left bottom-row a/g to substitute your reverse e/f for full e/f bidirectionality.....you already have full bidirectional a/g in left middle and top, i use both sets equally and it's more than enough, never use the low set.

 

and if you're designing a 38-key, by limiting your notes to nothing above high-C, and nothing below low-G (ok, one low F and one low g#/a-fl), you can REALLY get yourself fluid bidirectional phrasing choices in almost all of the flat keys used in irish music. if i haven't lost my place in the suttner wait list, this is precisely what i'm gonna do with my one-day 38-key. been scared to pull the trigger because i don't currently have access to a 38-key to test my design, of which there have been many drafts.......

Edited January 27, 2011 by ceemonster

[Azalin]

and also by losing the left bottom-row a/g to substitute your reverse e/f for full e/f bidirectionality.....you already have full bidirectional a/g in left middle and top, i use both sets equally and it's more than enough, never use the low set.

 

If you're talking about the G/A on the LH G row, I don't think I could live without it! I'm sure it depends on each person, but I absolutely need this button sometimes when coming from the LH D/E G row index finger, I especially like to push the D with the index and then pull the A with my third finger. I also use the A/G sometimes on the LH accidental row, so I guess I need all of them :-)

 

But I agree with you that anything above the high C on the right could be replaced. It's very interesting, I'll seriously think about that I'd like to have instead for when I get my Bb/F Carroll concertina!

 

(The low E on the LH accidental row can be interesting for playing E-low E-E as an 'ornament', the low F is nice for some chords, and the super low C can make an occasional nice low effect. I think I'd keep them because they're not that easily accessible anyway!)

[david_boveri]

and also by losing the left bottom-row a/g to substitute your reverse e/f for full e/f bidirectionality.....you already have full bidirectional a/g in left middle and top, i use both sets equally and it's more than enough, never use the low set.

 

If you're talking about the G/A on the LH G row, I don't think I could live without it! I'm sure it depends on each person, but I absolutely need this button sometimes when coming from the LH D/E G row index finger, I especially like to push the D with the index and then pull the A with my third finger. I also use the A/G sometimes on the LH accidental row, so I guess I need all of them :-)

 

But I agree with you that anything above the high C on the right could be replaced. It's very interesting, I'll seriously think about that I'd like to have instead for when I get my Bb/F Carroll concertina!

 

(The low E on the LH accidental row can be interesting for playing E-low E-E as an 'ornament', the low F is nice for some chords, and the super low C can make an occasional nice low effect. I think I'd keep them because they're not that easily accessible anyway!)

 

what sorts of things have you been thinking about putting above the high C?