JimLucas Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Or is it purely a finacial motivation, to buy a 'cheap' duet and sell it as an expensive anglo? Well, there certainly seems to be that possibility. It does raise all sorts of questions about both authenticity and quaility. I don't think the number and pitches of the reeds would match. So some reeds would presumably have to be either severely retuned or replaced. What's the "truth in advertising" regarding a 30-button anglo with mostly original Jeffries reeds? Or with some original reeds significantly altered? Probably the reed pans would also require significant alteration or replacement... with what kind of wood? And then there's the question of whether the ends are original (with a bunch of empty or plugged holes) or just new. Because of mismatch in the note values, converting two 45-button duets to three 30-buitton anglos won't really work, in any case. So it does leave me wondering how much financial profit is left after such a conversion, if one is truthful about what has been done. I don't know what sort of price might be paid for a "Jeffries anglo, converted from duet", because I don't recall ever seeing an instrument advertised that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Who does she think she is? The profit taking guardian of precious objects? I'm completely with Jim on this one. This is most unpleasant judgementalism, like those people who say they are good judges of character. She rules out the possibility of people growing into their concertinas as well. What was I supposed to do when I had my stroke? Sell my concertinas? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Who does she think she is? The profit taking guardian of precious objects?I'm completely with Jim on this one. Are you, Chris? I'm not at all sure I agree with you. This is most unpleasant judgementalism, like those people who say they are good judges of character. She rules out the possibility of people growing into their concertinas as well. Chris, the most "unpleasant judgementalism" I see is you and others being judgemental of her. You say she "rules out the possibility...," but that is entirely an assumption on your part. It is not something Henk reported, and what he did report is almost certainly incomplete. What was I supposed to do when I had my stroke? Sell my concertinas? Some might say yes. Many would say no. Others might be reasonable enough to suggest that it should depend on how severe your stroke was and your chances of recovery. But the general attitude of "our" society (not just Concertina.net) is that the decision should be up to you, because you own the instruments, and not because of anything to do with the stroke. As far as I can tell from what Henk reported, he woman in the shop expressed an opinion about one particular instrument and one particular person. It's not even clear to me from Henk's report whether she was the proprietress refusing to sell to him or simply someone helping him out and giving advice, however crudely put. I certainly find nothing in his anecdote indicating that she intends to dictate to you and others what you should do with your instruments. I think you all are reacting more to an imagined offense than a real one, and it leaves me to wonder what you have experienced in the past which now leads you to imagine such a thing and then be offended by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Or is it purely a finacial motivation, to buy a 'cheap' duet and sell it as an expensive anglo?Well, there certainly seems to be that possibility. I think what you are discussing is more a question of "supply and demand", and started when duets were almost impossible to sell. However, there is nothing new about it; I know, from Jim Harvey, for many years ICA Secretary, that Jeffries' sometimes converted their own instruments for people, in Jim's case it was his four-row Jeffries anglo into a duet ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Murray Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Chris, the most "unpleasant judgementalism" I see is you and others being judgemental of her. You say she "rules out the possibility...," but that is entirely an assumption on your part. It is not something Henk reported, and what he did report is almost certainly incomplete. I certainly find nothing in his anecdote indicating that she intends to dictate to you and others what you should do with your instruments. I think you all are reacting more to an imagined offense than a real one, and it leaves me to wonder what you have experienced in the past which now leads you to imagine such a thing and then be offended by it. Henk had the expression "you don't deserve it" in bold letters and quotes. I think I understand that that was not exactly what was said. What are we being accused of for reacting negatively to a salesperson saying that? No one called for the woman's execution, that I noticed. Have we betrayed feelings of inadequacy, imagining various things about this woman and our instruments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Chris, the most "unpleasant judgementalism" I see is you and others being judgemental of her. Stop being so bloomin' reasonable, Jim. I didn't like what I heard and I said so. I could have pretended not to find it unpleasant, I suppose, but is that better? If the situation is in fact other than originally described, then the clarification changes the judgements one makes. I am still uneasy post clarifaction, nevertheless. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henk van Aalten Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 As far as I can tell from what Henk reported, he woman in the shop expressed an opinion about one particular instrument and one particular person. It's not even clear to me from Henk's report whether she was the proprietress refusing to sell to him or simply someone helping him out and giving advice, however crudely put. I certainly find nothing in his anecdote indicating that she intends to dictate to you and others what you should do with your instruments. Well, I'm not going to describe the situation in detail, but I was already in the shop for more than an hour and was allowed to try out several concertina's that were available. One of the guys in the shop told me that normally F. was around in at this time in this shop and as she was a good concertina-player she could give me advice. The guy in the shop phoned her and told me that she was in town a should come in about 15 minutes. When F. arrived, she asked me to play some tunes and very soon she nodded her head and said: "forget all about your previous playing". (You should know that I had my previous concertina [Hohner 20 button C/G] for more than 15 years as a second instrument and only to have fun with. I took no lesson whatsoever, had no tutor-books, but my playing was based on harmonica-playing from long time ago). She explained about cross-row playing and Irish style etc. and wrote down some fingering patterns for me. At that moment I more or less had decided to go for the Marcus, based on look&feel and price, but I very much liked the mellow sound of the Wheatstone. So once more I took the Wheatstone in my hands to re-evaluate and at that moment she said "This Wheatstone is a very nice concertina, but you don't deserve it". In my memory the stress was on the first part of this sentence. The second part sounded to me like a superfluous addition. On top of that I knew that she was right. After all when I made my decission to buy the Marcus, I got some extra stuff for free, including Mick Bramich book (plus CD) on playing concertina in the Irish style, and I left the shop with the challenge to deserve a Wheatstone in future! Finally: 1. There was certainly a relation between F. and the shop, but I do not know what kind. 2. I realize that memory can play tricks, especially in filtering bad experiences (at least in my case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Henk had the expression "you don't deserve it" in bold letters and quotes. ... What are we being accused of for reacting negatively to a salesperson saying that? Yes, Erik, that's what I'm accusing you of. Maybe it's a peculiarly American notion, but I believe she has both a right to her opinion and a right to express it, even if it was as simple and obnoxious as Henk first reported, and even if I disagree with it. I would buy nothing from someone who said such a thing. Would you really pass up your dream instrument if she had it for sale and she said that Henk didn't deserve it, but you did? No one called for the woman's execution, that I noticed. Maybe now I'm reading in more than you intended, but I interpret that previous quote not so much as a personal commitment to boycott, but a feeling that she should be subject to a general boycott. While not execution as such, it definitely seems to be a call for punishment. Have we betrayed feelings of inadequacy, imagining various things about this woman and our instruments! I'm going to take that question as non-rhetorical, and say "yes". I don't think any of us would like being told that we don't deserve a particular instrument, but how many of us would be willing to sell our own prized instrument to just anyone off the street? And if you want to claim that you would, on the belief that they might truly enjoy it and "grow into" it, then how would you respond to someone who made it clear that they intended to chop the instrument into pieces and use its parts in a sculpture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 "Deserve" is a funny hot-button word. I try not to use it. I think it's charming that the salesperson was so forthright. Pandering to people to make money off them makes me ill. People seem to be walking on eggshells nowadays not to "offend" anyone. No need to get defensive, if she's right, great. If not, stick up for yourself and buy what you want. If you're embarassed and ignorant and defense, well, you've learned something now, haven't you? Maybe you could ask her what she means. Would you rather be pandered to and treated like a cash cow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Murray Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 While not execution as such, it definitely seems to be a call for punishment. No Jim, you got it wrong. I just find the idea of someone saying "you don't deserve it" obnoxious. I have no idea who this person is. It's all very simple. If she was selling something I wanted I would probably get over it even if I found I didn't like her. What's with all the analysis? It's just an opinion about the idea of someone not deserving an instrument. Henk is pleased with the concertina he got but I'd hate to think that passing up the Wheatstone was influenced by that remark. I certainly never meant to imply that anyone doesn't have a right to an opinion. It's just that it's sometimes rude or inappropriate to express opinions. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Thorne Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 (edited) Aren't we all getting rather overexcited here about a reported conversation from some time ago. The spoken word has subtleties of expression that the written word (ie the reporting of it in this thread) cannot represent, so to condemn this woman so roundly, without her having the possibility of replying seems a little unfair. Clive Edited June 7, 2004 by Clive Thorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Brook Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I agree Clive. We were not there. Henk was there. He is happy at the outcome of the situation. Let's leave it at that even though we may be tempted to speculate on the rudeness (or not), or friendly advice (or not) of this person. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Would you rather be pandered to and treated like a cash cow? A cash bull! Please!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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