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kevin toner

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  1. Sorry for not replying until now; I hadn't been checking my posts. Please find these attached as requested. Thanks for your interest Kevin [ps: for the avoidance of doubt the matrix no. for 'A Sunday Parade 'is CAR 1033, which is clearly etched on the shellac surface runout-end (despite reading a blotchy 1088 or 83 on the actual label itself)]
  2. I've had a listen to the wav file and it's definitely much more concertina (and English Concertina sounding too) than any other kind of reed/bellows instrument. Apologies it's so much in the background and of mp3 quality for the time being! [edit: Forget it being my granddad, it seems too rehearsed for the set, but that said there was quite a population of musicians at this time in tune with each other...]
  3. I've had another listen to this and think there is slim likelihood of concertina, unless it's separately background vamping at times. I think I'm imagining this and wonder if I should delete this post - It's probable that it is a rehearsed accordionist or even other button box player in the background if not the main accordionist switching voicing and volume controls etc. If I delete in due course soon - it's because of uncertainty and so on. I believe this particular forum topic should always have concertina at the very least (and I don't think there's enough info to verify here! so sorry for posting and needing probably to delete). ps It's funny that in my a recent previous post, the concertina sound similarities (in pre-war bands/orchestras) was the very least also being discussed. No worries anyway!
  4. Services Calling: Tea for Two; etc. (WWII transcription discs) Starting at around 21:29 The harp is leading here, but do I detect a bit of English Concertina in the background, which is neither the billed star accordionist nor harmonicists? The latter does double for drums, but hmm, I wonder who’d be playing the tini in there (?) It adds a real nice sweet touch to augment an already marvellous wee concert I don’t think it’s a different kind of button-box; tho it doesn’t matter – it’s an absolutely lovely piece at a difficult time (on my actual wav/raw file you can actually hear geese in the background at a point I think enjoying the music too). It has some great musicians from around the world with Dutch roots I was thoroughly enjoying this 3-disc treat anyway, and then even more so when it seems like my Granddad and dropped by to do a little vamping in the background for the next few numbers. It’s a long shot, but it does sound like him, and he was stationed not greatly far away from this base; entertaining troops and locals in nearby counties or vicinity. Apparently he was a real hit - and him and acquaintances made some easy money too doing requests and so forth (he played and others went round with the bonnet/cap collecting handsomely, I think), but narrowly escaping a court marshal if it weren’t for the superior’s approval of music, I can’t quite remember the exactitudes of all the wee stories... There is a memoirs book about the base that could shed more clues about life there. It was a British base that the Royal Netherlands Brigade took over. - As I listen again, I think the accordionist has possibly retreated to the background away from mikes and harmonising with the non-piano side of the accordion, albeit there’s single notes too (but whicjh might have been a voicing switch change on the instrument so that it changes the sound/voicing of the singular notes), hence me thinking it sounds a bit like a concertina. I’m not even a novice on the Acoordion, so cannot say! Anyone else will know better – it would be great to hear some verification or thoughts on that background reed instrument not taking such a lead for the last couple of so songs as the concert draws to a finish. ps If anyone can identify the preceding and lovely French ballad that'd be brill!
  5. I think I've identified the 8 songs now. I rocketed forward with gaining knowledge from a recent find, '50 Years of Song' arranged by Aubrey Kennett (for 6 of the possibly 8 songs). The remaining 2 songs being from Will Godwin, Leo Dryden; and Leslie Sarony. Tho still a little mystified because of renditions of titles sounding like each other.
  6. Good question, and I'm not educated enough to give an informed answer, but I think 1 take is highly likely and that's in general to the length of a 78 rpm shellac disc on 1 side (up to 3+ mins for 10" records) especially for a such a skilled salon outfit who could I guess run for much longer (12" & transcription 33 1/3s etc. or even live, for long classical compositions). It wasn't until LPs I think that gave bands a chance to roll out a full 20+ mins side, for example the uninterrupted LP sides during when the ballroom dancing movement took off in parallel with the evolution of LPs etc. The particular band in your repliy, worked in a great many other guises and band names, aka the Orpheus Dance Orch/Band(?), worked also as a quartet to many listeners' surprise or disbelief due to the sheer wealth of instruments being heard on a side. I think this managing instruments and combined arrangements and so forth was maybe as much 2nd nature as it was an art in what was undoubtedly a professional skill set as evidenced in the above genre...... [ps I've had another listen to it - There seems to be an almost reeds quality that comes from the strings too in an intimate chamber orch context. So that coupled with actual reed related instruments other than concertina could make one imagine they're hearing like qualities. I think the English concertina was of course about the opposite to this theory........: the concertina to replicate the tones of the violin!
  7. That was my first impressions too. I don't know much about it myself, yet, as I've not listened to it much at a decent volume to help me figure out the instruments. I hope to be back in touch again with this or similar incidental concertina lurking in old recordings. There's quite a lot of concertina on record sleeve graphics all the same, even for early LPs despite the great shortage of it in actual popular recodings of the past - another topic! I think it would be good to have the concertina identified much more from old recordings where it's heard filling in but not being credited. There's some quite nice sounds in old light music or novelty bands that is sometimes I think because it has a rich background of instrumentation, perhaps even with concertina or the likes subtly enriching it (if not from other well mixed in reed instruments) serving the background. I look forward as a novice to hearing more gradually or eventually. Maybe have a listen to as an example from a 1932 light music orch.- I wonder if there's concertina in this at times! Oh and another YouTuber so kindly provided all the titles in the selection that I couldn't identify or got wrong.
  8. I wonder what kind of concertina it is at points (especially for the last song of side A where it leads).
  9. Please feel free to help identify any of the songs included in the medley Thanks Kevin
  10. https://soundcloud.com/user-525630858-405274758 Enjoy, courtesy of Stuart Eydmann, the author! CD-1 has my grandad Danny with wife Jeanie. CD-2 ditto; plus my uncle Freddie on Banjo, an in-law of my Gran's; and Billy Boyd, my stepdad, on Harmonica.
  11. Yes, I guessed that as per my post, but didn't know the terminology used to explain the difference between extended-mode and otherwise. Great to know that there is the option to have each. I'd presume that it's model 20/20a that has the 'unrelated-to-treble' keyboard My TT has the low F3 one 5th below the middle C on the left side. Fortunately the TT range goes down to C3 on the right. I would need these extra lower notes if I were to play with either swapped keyboard sides and/or row positions. I'm still a bit unclear on how all the models compare, button/layout-position wise, until I can actually have a feel and/or compare Audio/Visual clips. So, I'll dream on for the moment. I'm communicating with Buttonbox on it and it happens to be the case that their two baritone Aeolas are of the extended variety so that it maps with my TT, but the other (non-extended) mode would be equally fine as I've said, if not better for me. ps I'm glad you've found/understand your preferred ranges too.
  12. conzertino, many thanks for the update and new info. The 10a is almost what I need, and not far off a Wheatstone 10b, as I need the 56 keys as a minimum. Also good to be reminded of the model 14 for sale at $6k+, an aeola equivalent of the 10b, which would again be okay indeed. I am kind of hankering for a switch in the layout that puts the middle C on the opposite side, which the 10b probably should be doing to fit within the hexagon (?) I note that the model 14 Aeola for sale has middle C on the same side (left) as my 56 key TT Aeola (model 19):- 1) as a slightly lazier option - to read the treble clef where I'm accustomed to playing it (when I'm raising an octave from the piano/vocal sheet music); 2) presumably a lighter weight; 3) maybe also cheaper; However, I wouldn't be averse to having the exact same keyboard as my TT on a slightly bigger Aeola as I'm fairly accustomed to reading an octave above, but not yet at sight-reading speed, which is also the case for me with bass clef, and especially if the quality is better matched to my TT Aeola, which is another aspiration. I won't know yet until I start testing and/or acquiring. Oh, ps: Steve Dickinson recently overhauled the TT for me and may be able to sort any Baritones out to the same standard. I need to find one first that hasn't been too tampered with (or maintainable). I asked Chris who doesn't have one as yet, but is looking out for me as well. Fingers crossed! Thanks again ps Oh, I see there's also a Glasgow based extended baritone up to C7 from possibly F2 (64 buttons) like a Wheatstone model 16 - and it's over $1k cheaper too. It could be perfect for my purposes. I'd better now make an enquiry to see if I can try it - oops, false start, it's Glasgow US presumably, hmm. pps I think I would put 'quality/maintainability' above 'range' rather than vice versa if it came to having to chose where to put limited funds... ppps: No, I see now, it was a presumably former principal of the instrument who came from Glasgow, Scotland. One of the priciest kinds of Aeola, I would imagine, and I'd guess justifying an owner's own engraving. Regarding the other instrument for sale on Buttonbox.com. the 56-key variant, I wonder in what way the model 14 is different from the model 20a - both have a similar description on the 1930 pricelist PDF and are the same price - maybe one involves the middle C being on the left and the the other on the right ('slipped', as I think Steve termed it). I can imagine such a slippage in the pattern affording a slightly more economical sizing. Both would have their merits, but in respect of the other instrument, the model 16 like 64-key Aeola going up to C7, I think I'd prefer to have the less economical, larger, sizing so that it can, practically, double as my tenor-treble when it's out getting serviced... The 56-key model 14 would of course also be able to double as a TT, but not to the same extent at the higher end.
  13. Please let me know if this is still available or similar. I'm on the look out for one of these rare items because low and behold, as I've anticipated for some time, I'm having to sooner or later put some of my repertoire plans on hold until I acquire a model in this range. "I only have eyes for you" has sprung up as an example song from my planned "The Thirties" songbook transcriptions and practice for English Concertina, from piano/vocal sheet music, which I'm comfortably over a 1/4 way through by transcribing/playing both clefs on mainly tenor-treble (56 key). I anticipate that around 1 in 10 songs from such standards, or probably even much less, will need the use of a slightly more extended range into the bass clef: "I only have eyes for you" as a case in point - ideally - requiring a 56 key baritone from G2 to G6; or perhaps a slightly larger model that can straddle this range a little more, but possibly at the expense of weight, although I'm not so sure anymore (going on comments). I've seen three others today too, so far in my search, which I think are all unfortunately museum based. I wouldn't mind swapping a 60 key 1897 Lachenal New Model treble to help afford a baritone aeola like this one. I was recently told that they're difficult to acquire and well sought after, as you'd expect. I have the tenor-treble equivalent (Wheatstone model 19 Aeola ) and I can therefore understand this sentimentality. There's no rush as I've plenty of songs to get through, probably years' worth. If the worst comes to the worst, then I can always transpose the key to fit to within C3 to C7 or even Bb2 upwards excluding B2 as I've fortunately that modified Eb3 duplicate that I've posted about way back on the forum. I like authenticity in the written key, so I shall leave key-transposing to the last if my wait for a similar baritone should become too long. Back to the music stand that I no longer have! ps If it weren't for my need to grow my transcription accomplishments beyond the 11 songs that I've learned, so far, maybe averaging out about 5 new songs per-annum: shared alongside necessary practice on learned songs, then I would probably publish and/or record the results my findings, but I feel that the first 5 years will be needed to continue - dedicate towards - transcribing and practising (notwithstanding that I am recording thoughts on my Google+ page as I progress). I keep myself stringing along to the plan! A couple of years down now, and hopefully many more to go.
  14. No construction work today, but the exacerbated noises remain non-conducive to playing/contemplation? I’ve not been practising for a couple of weeks; and I now ask myself why I bear this. The exacerbation of low frequencies can make a modest car engine sound excruciatingly severe and is not good during contemplation. It seems to have gone off upon typing these thoughts already, despite normal traffic going by, for how long I ask. I should have long cottoned on that some entity or whatever it is (let’s call it Hyperacusis) does not want me progressing on concertina. I will make a plea to myself. If sound stays like it is now I will return to progressing on the instrument. However, otherwise is simply torture, and cannot be doing me any good (?) It will simply annoy me to the point I’ll lose the rag. Who knows: if I stay off concertina for a while maybe the ugly/irritating exacerbation will give way. I think it’s starting to come back now as I finish my post. Okay: will now have to sign off until such times; and very sorry I’m taking this new approach. Yes, it’s definitely back now... I hope it’s not for long! Goodbye for now. [Oh it’s back off again, I’m not playing on/off games – no way – it has to stay off for good I’m afraid, someone’s trying to call too, so better go] Cheers again, I read in though!
  15. I was wrong: the bleeps were not from these. I found out that these boxes are simply noise/vibration monitors to detect/maintain acceptable/safe levels from adjacent site operations. Funnily, recently on a BBC news article on the current Royal Society exhibit, I think, there was close parallel to the rhythms and tones characteristics of the aforementioned curious bleeping, but typically I can't seem to locate it now from the BBC News website, searching under 'bubble' : I believe the scientist who explained the sounds was Dr Gianluca Memoli who can can be seen here talking in-house on the topic: http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/sensing-bubbles/ I wish I had the BBC article though because it was a near rendition of the aforementioned bleeping. In a similar manner, I've noticed my local bleeps changing tone too sometimes from beyond piccolo to cello, not per bleep, but per occasion, although it's much more likely to be at the high end. How uncanny I thought when I seen the bbc news article a week or so after my original citing of the bleeps! Last time I notice them was in the dead of night, probably within a week. Just after the witching hour when writing a post, I noticed it blatantly obvious amongst some passing laughter from outside. Perhaps they'd heard the same thing, as it's easy to detect if it occurs at quiet times, and found it funny Perhaps we can call it the Toner-Boson - ergo is it really there all around us - I'd hope not as learning concertina is difficult enough without such garnish! The day after this post when I was trying to forget what might be causing the peeps, a BBC News report on the ineffectiveness of young offenders’ electronic tags got me unconvincingly thinking for a moment ‘could that be it’ I said of course, nah! However, back on track, I’ve made progress Chris regarding the actual source, if you’re still there. I’ll come to that in a moment. Firstly folks, Other interesting parallels, better than the Dr Memoli bubbles, would be the scorelight or stickylight, in fact this might be more similar than the bubbles' sound experiments: http://www.ninjalovesdigital.com/2009/10/scorelight-by-alvaro-cassinelli.html http://www.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/perception/StickyLight/ However, today I’ve found where an instance of the bleeping is coming from, although I've had to hunt high and low for it as it rarely occurs outside the endless revving noises from various plant. Yes, they kinda sound like Morse code machines; and site personnel, up until now, have not disclosed what it was. If it’s what helps exacerbate the revving noises from the traffic or site plant, then it’s time I had a rest from ‘em eh - I want to be able to hear what I'm playing without wearing phones. That said, Yesterday I had another golden period where I could sense something of a rumbly undertone (?) give way, perhaps again something from the site, which when turned off made the busy bus/taxi avenue traffic pass by astonishingly quiet in comparison... I was therefore able to enjoy my music – too exhausted from it all to practise. The worst of the site noise is to end in around a month, so I think I’ll take my progress a little easier through this horrendously loud period. Right, no more suspense:- It appears that the recorded bleeps [as per my previous link] are likewise laser based, i.e. from an on-site laser scanner for surveying progress, presumably to maintain steelwork tolerances? They’d probably be more distracting if there weren’t construction/traffic noises to mask them. Perhaps it deliberately coincides with plant operations to mask their peepiness (?) I’ve noticed it running all day today because of its relative closeness perhaps. Although there are 2 different kinds, yards apart. As I write this, my nearby fridge is now reminding me of the laser noise, tut! I’ve taken a photo of one here and have added another video revealing the extra one being turned on by staff during my search for it: A veritable case of its Leica lens Vs my Leica lens. An edited version of the video is here. - Now some actual crazy stuff if I may impart. If you’ve got this in NYC hardlines! It shouldn’t really be happening in ‘pavement’ Glasgow, but the indoors smoking ban has its downside in downtown. On the subject of the voice throwing passer-by[ers], which I’ve briefly mentioned before. I make no apology for this little photoshoot here, capturing the back of one or two chaps from my first accidental run-in with this ageless genre. Don’t worry it’s going to be my last! Having had a bellyful of the never ending chatter act that can occur from time to time or indefinitely during practise, but which drove me up the wall in the past, when it literally sounded like one person with a rumbly voice talking all day long..., and they’re definitely throwing their voices it’d seem, I stuck my head out the window and cursed to myself looking over at the techno lads pub throng [a block away] that often have thumping house music helping to exacerbate the traffic revs when I’m trying to hear my own music, only to see one of the chatterers from below looking up before moving on and asking ‘you talkin i me’ and trying to get his bud to look up too and join in on a fight, but they moved on. I didn’t entertain in any discussion. Thank goodness I had my Leica lens to hand, albeit sharpness has been a little compromised from my wary positioning out the window... My shots reveal both chaps’ journey to what looked like the wine bar, 2 blocks away (with its throng diagonally opposite the techno pub throng) before they quickly moved on, wisely as I might’ve went down to join them for a drink as I was thinking earlier in another similar instance when I’d looked out to see the exact same slow moving ‘big talking small fries’ hesitate before entering the pub in the other direction (1 block away) as I’d been watching this time [i’d originally thought loud mouths would be excited nearby cinema goers] – more about that in a moment, that throng can be a little unnerving at times as a local*, that’s 3 generations of regular throngs there (techno-crats; yobboes; & post-war crooner gangsters/Mafiosi); ! I wonder why they were both so quickly on their mobiles after the wee run-in. There are in fact 3 throngs looking down in the other direction towards the cinema: i.e. a yobbo land pub, and a less intimidating chain of eateries, bookies, etc. that really should be sited on a piazza to allow the gatherers to permit the passer-by unabated passage. Nothing unusual there, but when I was better off [prior to the recession] and during my cinema season ticket days, getting to the cinema on the next block up meant walking on the road. On some occasions when I thought I could use the pavement a couple of blocks/gals would comically walk backwards into my path. It’s the one good thing about not having the season ticket: no navigating pavement precincts! *here’s a video of them [literally] halfway through an advert. I’m sure the pavement blocking is all good hearted stuff: In my rather restrained noise gallery are some other images I’d taken showing some more typified noise sources: enjoy! Apologies if incoherent, but I mustn't bottle it up and get such big issues off my chest. They call today ‘Fair Monday’ in Glasgow.
  16. I agree, apprehensively as I'm not taking guitar any further than I perhaps ought to in terms of Classical. I'm yet discovering that the key to overcoming the likes of Roberton's arrangement of 'Mingulay Boat Song' on TT EC is to discover what the best hand orientation is for the chosen fingering and vice versa. I'm sure this is something in common with guitar. It's not a score that's flooded with notes, but sometimes I find myself straining and missing the target because my hand orientation is wrongly either too open or closed at any given time - it has to be perfect. The same perfection I assume might also be key to overcoming some classical guitar exercises. I must say I'm nervous about losing ambidexterity as guitar is so intensively different per hand in comparison to other stringed instruments, piano being otherwise more correlative. I'd however agree/contend that the left hand work on a guitar might be more closely associated with [at least] the English Concertina (EC) than piano fingering is.
  17. Thanks Chris again, headphones actually do take the edge off the noisier episodes. I don't know what I'd do without them. I wish I could record what I'm hearing though, but I'd need a y connector for my phones and to simultaneously connect to a recorder. Alas my laptop is not a great recorder of live sound from the concertina despite having a great mike/mixer/amp set up! I was wrong: the bleeps were not from these. I found out that these boxes are simply noise/vibration monitors to detect/maintain acceptable/safe levels from adjacent site operations. Funnily, recently on a BBC news article on the current Royal Society exhibit, I think, there was close parallel to the rhythms and tones characteristics of the aforementioned curious bleeping, but typically I can't seem to locate it now from the BBC News website, searching under 'bubble' : I believe the scientist who explained the sounds was Dr Gianluca Memoli who can can be seen here talking in-house on the topic: http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/sensing-bubbles/ I wish I had the BBC article though because it was a near rendition of the aforementioned bleeping. In a similar manner, I've noticed my local bleeps changing tone too sometimes from beyond piccolo to cello, not per bleep, but per occasion, although it's much more likely to be at the high end. How uncanny I thought when I seen the bbc news article a week or so after my original citing of the bleeps! Last time I notice them was in the dead of night, probably within a week. Just after the witching hour when writing a post, I noticed it blatantly obvious amongst some passing laughter from outside. Perhaps they'd heard the same thing, as it's easy to detect if it occurs at quiet times, and found it funny Perhaps we can call it the Toner-Boson - ergo is it really there all around us - I'd hope not as learning concertina is difficult enough without such garnish!
  18. Indeed! In this example here with 3 long and deep extended semibreves, I'd have to play these in 3 bellow actions rather than 2 if my T-T EC bellows weren't 8-fold. I'm not sure if I'd get away with a 6-fold equivalent without trying. This goes into my notations 'hall of fame' for being "...so unkind" ergo to us concertinists The more I look into this song "Memories of You" as a testbed, the more incidentals I find! Thanks Brian101 for helping me spot this particular one.
  19. I keep saying I’m almost there with “Memories of You” as I plan to record it again. Please forgive me. I’ve discovered another finger weakness matter, which might like some 3rd fingering be a common trait. I’ve been struggling with an instantaneous pinky travel to the 2nd arpeggiated chord in the chorus bridge. I can’t overcome this (at moderato tempo) no matter how long I try to practice the difficulty out. I hit the target 25%; 50% finding the button side; & 25% missing it completely. I’ve therefore adopted another approach: ergo to substitute with the 3rd, which necessitates a Blake-ian pivot using my index momentarily onto 2 buttons on the following note. It’s not the only place in the score where such a Blake-ian move is called for. Now back to why I’ve changed to this:- My pinkie struggled to find the low C (2nd column RHS and therefore incidentally one of the lowest buttons on the T-T) by travelling it from the outer row Bb (4th column RHS). This is because the change has to be instant and the pinkie mechanics (for me) aren’t capable of it while thumbs are fully through. It wouldn’t be a problem on a B-T where the low C is raised a row. I know this as there hadn’t been a problem by playing experimentally a 5th (or row) up. Furthermore, I use the pinky for a similar action on the 1st bar of the verse (at the lowest row on the LHS) and it’s no problem. So an extra row down (which the RHS has) is where the breaking point is for me (on this particular pinky action) and so I will be rememorizing the problem chord/bar the other aforementioned way. I now know that for a T-T I can be expecting too much of the pinkie to do such [travelling] gymnastics on and off the confines of the low C & C#. I will be substituting any more of these that I find on other songs with a 3rd (ring) finger. Funnily as per a previous post, I conversely found that I had to substitute the other way round (opting for pinkie instead) for the preceding arpeggiated chord that launches the bridge due to the weakness of the 3rd finger. The mechanics of movement are quite different despite being the same button. My endurances (on using the wrong fingers) prior to arriving at these 2 lessons were not quite in vain as I’ve really strengthened up my pinkie & 3rd fingers as a result. I must now familiarise on the chosen method. It’s a million times easier, actually anyway, nothwithstanding the re-memorisation required. I’ve also discovered that my laptop is terrible for sound recording: so for the time being I’ll have to settle for the mono compact camera as before, but will try converting it to a reasonable HQ when I get round to recording. I’m now almost entirely comfortable with all the chosen methods and shan’t be long in settling in. One more thing though, although not being a great problem. As I mentioned on the other bass clef practise post, ‘notes-or-clef specific’ accents (excluding staccato/legato) cannot be produced on concertina like piano. This is largely not a big issue as I can see from my 30s songbook, but on “MoY” 50% of bars on the verse are affected to the extent that layering will be necessary to record an entirely Blake-ian rendition. Layering is something I fear we shouldn’t be shying away from as there's different qualities to be found in playing clefs separately. Duetting is another way round it. Blake indeed forces us on “MoY” to treat the clefs as separate entities on 50% of the verses... I wonder how many pianists partake though. I’m sure for this 50% of the bars that if Blake heard the 2 clefs being played separately in EC by 2 players (one basically vamping) he’d be glad that his score was shaped in this way.
  20. I've added a caption on my granddad's wartime photo here. Interesting how he'd amazing strength in his fingers from his vocation. Another similar route to finger strength would be mountaineering. I wonder if such strength made a difference to his incredible concertina playing ability (?)
  21. Baritone-Trebles appear to be a 1920 onwards development in Wheatstone's pricelists specific to Aeloas, models 14 to 16, which are undoubtedly different from the original Baritone configuration, as follows. I have a suspicion that the model 20a (56k) simply named a "Baritone", but with the exact same range as the model 14 (56k) named a Baritone-Treble, is based on the older or formative Baritone layout, which appears to be of an opposite handedness to the treble orientated tenors and later developed baritone-trebles. Simple really! So Wheatstone probably [economically] trialled/marketed the formative Baritones by swapping the keys over without adapting the standard EC button patterns per side; then probably within a couple of decades later had evolved a Baritone that's sides would be altered without swapping the keys, ergo because lazy people like me, but with lots of cash, would be able to advance on their ranges without much cerebral effort. Both the 56k Baritone and Baritone-Treble Aeloas (of the exact same range) appeared to be sold at the same price over the 1920s/30s, varying merely in handedness and in the slightly different outline of buttons. This sequence of development also makes sense. Hopefully that puts the B-T [aka TED] question finally to bed. If I ever see a picture of an actual model 20/20a Aeola (i.e. Baritone, not TED or B-T), I'd be able to tell for sure. Shelly, can you post an image or the serial No. of your supposed TED? ps: I don't know if similar developments have occurred in reverse at the high piccolo end of the spectrum, but that's not for this post, which is discussing bass clef matters. My hunch is that the EC is really centred mostly on middle C being on the LHS, hence the eventual need to evolve a hybrid Baritone.
  22. Yes true, the red button here is a 'middle C' (C4), but I'd rather play this as a C5 since I'm a sight reader and read from the stave; and therefore prefer to feel for 'middle C' on the LHS handing instead! Simple yes! The complex side might be that we can pretend its C5 C4 is a C4 C5, but then in doing so we'd lose the advantage of having those extra few more bass notes that we hanker for when trying to interpret bass clef in piano score work. You're right, in that I'd need to try one first to determine whether or not swapping hands from what I'm used to will be taxing. I trust it might be, but I really wouldn't know yet before trying.
  23. Shelly, I'm actually in two minds over this now! If only I had my Granddad's draughts (chequers) prowess! He was the last one to do my T-T justice, before him his dad. Alas, chess is no good here, otherwise I wouldn't fuss about acquiring a standard B-T like your's. STET. I hasten to think what it'd be like to mentally swap hands. Probably like going from right hand to left hand guitar work in a way. I can't believe I was actually trying that earlier today on my uke for the first time! I'd better stick to model 19s (TTs) and 16s (BTs) [ps: and models 14s (BTs) to a lesser extent] for the time being, i.e. the treble-tenors' and treble-baritones' family. I was wondering about how you might feel starting out on a standard B-T first and having to think in different hands if swapping over to treble proper? Actually, c/o an email by Geoff, I now know the layout patterns of the model 16 B-T relative to other B-Ts: I was correct regarding the mod 16, but wrong regarding the standard B-t layouts. Apparently, there'd be no need to swap hands as first imagined! The slightly different outline of button areas that B-Ts have was what was throwing me. I suspected this previously, but got carried away with a much simpler assumption, not citing more than one possibility, i.e. to an already complicated subject. So, glad that's cleared up then. The implication is that I'd be less averse than previously to normal (non model 16) B-T's. I might still find the slightly varied outline of buttons a little alien to begin with. I imagine, for me, that some of the songs in my repertoire might necessitate a B-T even although "Memories of You" has proven to be a thoroughly T-T suited piece... Please excuse my Stet. in bold above on my original comment. It does so happen that there is actually a further model of Baritone within the same range as the model 14/16 B-Ts that does indeed swap the sides over as I'd first surmised, which you might have a variant of as follows [i.e. if yours is a model 20]. These are the model 9/9a/10/10a (48k) or 10b (56k). A standard one has been posted on Ebay for 1.2k and is currently being discussed on the 'Buy & Sell' forum. Possibly the model 20 Baritone is the Aeola equivalent of these, i.e. the model 20 (48k) and 20a (56k), which might also mean an opposite handedness from the treble & "B-T" families proper. The original Wheatstone pricelists state such opposite handed models as simply Baritones rather than Baritone-Trebles despite having the exact same range. Therefore Shelly you might well actually have the opposite handing to the B-T family of models. Again, one of the ways you'd be able to tell us is by saying what side your 'middle C' is on. Again, "learning the hard way as it were", but scholarly so ! The Ebay example looks like a model 9 (walnut 48k)!
  24. So this is what a Baritone layout looks like proper. I suppose this would be the model 20 9, which looks like it swaps the sides so that middle C transfers onto the RHS, i.e. unlike the slightly different model 14 Baritone-Treble where middle C remains on the LHS. I first surmised this on a different post prior to Geoff showing me the actual model 14 and 16 layouts of the [variant] Baritone-Trebles. I'm glad I've now seen the evidence of what I'd first surmised: that standard Baritones would have to swap sides to keep to the standard button layouts to which model 14 B-Ts digress. I'll need to update my scholarly entry on the teaching forum post I'd replied to. Will do in a moment, where there's an interesting discussion going on RE the differences in EC button layouts. I'd personally feel inclined to avoid the model 20/20a layouts 9s/10s [possibly model 20/20a Aeola equivalents too] due to the cerebral difficulty in swapping hands after acclimatising to the middle C on the LHS. If this is indeed the model 9 (walnut 48k) then it's coming in at quite a bargain as I'd have thought 1.6k would be more correct, based on second hand. However if this really is as good as new then you x2 that figure to 3.2k, in my opinion. Would this be right thereabouts, although perhaps there's an intermediate value between 1) good-as-new and 2) good-condition. Such as perhaps reconditioned or recently-overhauled, which might be the good-condition price plus the cost of overhaul (?)
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