d.elliott

There is one change mechanism relating to reeds that I am convinced of: Vibrating metals tend to stress relieve and settle, even bending to stress neutral positions (when the vibration is being effected). I believe that when a reed tongue vibrates it vibrates with its neutral axis being pushed towards its optimum sounding (least stress condition). Vibration then causes further stress relief so the reed subtilely settles in its best set and form, but only over a longish period of play, ie. it plays in. This is only a theory, but the science works, and it seems to account for part of the 'playing in' effect Dave

I agree with Malcolm, nothing to be frightened of in buying this instrument Dave

Paul, its a Seiko, but now an obsolete model. As to harmonics, I think that I must get at least 1 reed in say 200 that reads in tune, but souns off, Harmonic effects, I havd learned some causes and things to avoid/ do; but would need an oscilloscope to be able to truely get to grips with the issue, hence my questions on this thread. Dave

Paul, I was asking, are you using the tuner as an osciloscope, if so were you able to separate out hermonics, and have you learnt how to modify them? My tuner is better than +/- 1 cent Dave

I have been asked to do my workshops at Whitby Folk Festival in August Dave

A few disparaging remarks, since my last posting, a bit sad. M I understood that you were after tuning a full instrument, and thats how I, and I guess a few others, framed our responses. I tend to agree that you might get away with tuning by ear, but only if you have a standard to tune to. There are various tuning pitch generator bits of software (freeware last time I looked) that will give you a variable (note value to note value) reference standard. But test a reed's pitch with the reed assembled into the instrument, not in free air, sounded by mouth. I don't agree with Pauls comments on strobe tuning, a good quality chromatic (full scale & all sharps & flats) tuner will do most people and certainly what you are looking for. I have seen a study that said that most people cannot distinguish intervals two cents, and four cents in chords/ free play when the tune is constantly moving, hence my comment about acceptable tolerance, perhaps I should have used the word 'accuracy'. Paul, if you use strobe tuning, do you try to seggregate harmonics, if so how do you adjust them out? I use a good quality tuner, but unfortunately over four times the cost of the 'reasonable' tuner I started off with. A good quality anaologue display being well worth the cost. In its ease and speed of use. Dave

I have actually made a couple of polishing sticks out of cherrywood, with small clamps at each end so that I can keep changing the abraisive, simply because I do so much tuning these days. However ice lolipop stckes are ideal for the incidental user (your self excluded Theo) The bigger issue, 'M', is do you have a worthwhile meter, and do you ave an idea of acceptable tolerance?? Meters are quite cheap these days, but you need one which is fully chromatic, and I prefer an analogue display Dave

Polishing stick is a home made file with a flat face, about 4 ins long with fine wet or dry abraisive paper fixed onto it, to make a very smooth file that will manage brass and even the hardest steel. This tool also improves the reed fatigue life, and prevents stress raisers being formed by file cut marks Fibre glass pencil, is like a propelling pencil, but instead of lead it feeds like a 3mm dia fibre optic core that can be used as a rubbing medium. This can give off itchy dust so use latex gloves Dave

Difficult to measure objectively as well Dave

I think that there is a difference between baffles and dust / decorative protection Dave

Don't do it!! (grinding that is) 1. brass will clog and glaze the wheel 2, you do not have the control needed, there is a risk of skewing the reed tongue cross-section 3. the reed profile, longitudinally, needs to be maintained, grinding can be to concentrated onto an area, filing is easier to 'spread' 4. on the small reeds even a file is too rough. I have tried and rejected: Grinding, diamond files, carbide scrapers, slip stones. What works for me is a fine swiss file, and more often home made polishing sticks Dave

I am now working on Wheatsone serial 1503, this has spruce baffles so baffles were: leather, spruce, or pasteboard. Interesting to see if there are any tonal differences. If only I had time..... Dave

My thread was about repairing a worn lachenal action, not a riveted one. I have never had to deal with a worn wheatstone action, I am not saying that they don't happen, but not apparently in South Yorkshire! Any chance of a picture so that we can see how bad is bad? Dave

Yep daughters are expensive to keep! Moisturiser for hands, face and horses Dave

I wouldn't expect you to have that problem, Dave. But not everyone is as good with their hands as you are. My suggestion is a way for someone -- especially a first-time "craftsman" -- to discover their level of competence without doing anything irreversible. But some additional advice from you or Frank could be useful. What tool(s) do you use for lifting the lining? Fingers? Knife? Chisel? The answer may be obvious to you, but not necessarily to someone who hasn't done this kind of work before. Could be difficult, I suppose, though once the "loose" leather has been pressed in place for a while by the reed pan, I find it's usually possible to remove and replace the pan without disturbing the leather. But in the 15 or so years between inserting the leather into the instrument in those photos and opening it to take the pictures, I never had to take out either reed pan for any reason. I really had forgotten what I'd done. Come to think of it, I don't recall ever having to open any instrument for adjustment or repair during a session. Maybe I'm just used to attending lint-free sessions? (I did once replace a spring for John Roberts during a concert. Good I had my portable repair kit and spares with me.) In any case, I have proposed the "loose" solution only as a temporary measure. When it has become a long-term solution in my own instruments, it has been by accident... the accident of its effectiveness. I suspect that you under-estimate other people's craft skills, or more worryingly, overestimate mine! To lift the chamois bellows frame gasket, from the inside face, Frank says 'peel', and he is right, you can usually lift it just using fingers or just a flat bladed screwdriver to lever up any uncooperative parts. Occaisionally you will find packing from earlier days, even from the original manufacture. The fact that you have had your 'tempoary' fix in place for so long tends to support the suggestion that a perminant solution would not have been detrimental. My worst, dare I say 'on the fly' repair was the removal of the mascerated remains of a spider! One that had crawled into the fretting and then been sucked through a pad gap into a whirling reed. Shades of the early James Bond film where the bad chap goes into a snow blower on a ski slope. Dave

I always treat this problem by doing what Frank has said in his initial response to this thread. The shrinkage is not usually over the long axis of the reed pan grain, but accross it; and is likely to have occurred in the original post manufacure latter stages of the wood's seasoning process; and then further susequent drying out over many years. It (the shrunk wood) will not be likely to grow back, the reed pan is bye-and-large stable. So why not just do the job? I have never had chamios leather tear under these repair circumstances, the only time I have had to replace the bellows frame gasketing is when some PRATT has glued soft leather, or a card packer, or another layer of chamois over the top of the original gasket. So, don't be timid, just do the work. Imagine trying to arrange all the loose bits of all-sorts in the middle of a session after clearing a fouled reed????. cheers Jim Dave

As Paul and Dave regularly restore instruments, they must see many more that need such treatment than I have. I accept their conclusion. But that leaves me with two questions: ... 1) Does a "stiff and brittle" bellows that's been treated with shoe cream then last indefinitely, or does the leather eventually decay within a few years? ... 2) Do you also recommend such treatment for bellows that are not "stiff and brittle", or should they be left alone? Answer to point 1 Once the decay has started you cannot reverse it, however you can delay the inevitable, and treat the symptoms of creaking bellows and some of the stiffness; thus extending the life of the bellows. Some bellows just go powdery or just split on touch or movement, no amount of 'makeup' will sort them out. Answer to point 2 If it aint broke, dont fix it. However I do occaisionally 'polish' my own instrument bellows, particularly if I have been, or am about to, play out in English weather, but generally I just dust and clean. A bit of shoe cream on the gussets can do no harm, but its messy and can contaminate bellows papers as well as clothing. There is a preparation called leather balm, a Swiss concoction used by the horsey types on tack, that I have used on very brittle but not de-natured leather, but only very, very sparingly. It worked reasonably well, but left an oiled finish at first Dave

Jim and I have different views, and possibly differing experiences that form those views. I have seen top quality instruments with bellows disintegrating, and/ or very brittle, equally I have seen those that are good for many years to come. Bellows condition seems to be influenced by various scenarios: 1. obviously mechanical damage & accidents 2. the original 'quality' of the leather, I suppose particularly the curing process used. 3. storage conditions, particulalrly damp and condensation, then drying 4. prolonged period of not being played 5. poor clamping when not in play any combination of the above Experience says: Laquers crack, leather dries and grows stiff, sometimesbellows get noisy in play and their folding pats can rub showing the bright marks in gusset folds. Others suffer from extensive glue failure. Often fold outer corners rub through.............. You cannot always vouch for the concertina's prior life and its previous care; you can only treat and manage what you inherit. I have found the limited application of Meltonian shoe cream in gussets areas (avoiding contamination of papers and the weakening of glue bonds, or the lifting of lapped leather edges) is an excellent way to preserve and improve what I have had to work with. It will only clean lacqured areas (where applicable), but it will get into cracks in lacquer and into worn areas to feed the leather, lubricate rubs and creaks, and its available in many colours. As to dust in the bellows folds, it attracts more damp and dust, don't be paranoid, but occaisionally lightly brush it off as Jim suggests. Often the build up of fibres and dust collecting in the inside of leather folds is far more horrifying! Dave

Modesty forbids me to say that the book can be got through mally.com, or Mel Bay sites, or through David Leese who sponsors this site. if you do a search, you might find it helpful to spell Elliott with two 'T's cheers shhhhh you know who!

Before you jump one way or the other, can you confirm two things: Are the reeds Brass or steel? Lachenal usually stamped 'steel reeds' on one of the 'handles', if that is appropriate. Is the instrument in modern pitch? If not then that is another expense point. If its steel reeds THEN GET IT NOW! Then worry about repair details, Dave

That is my retirement project, build a Hurdy-Gurdy! Diana is less than happy with the idea however! Dave

Shengs and Harmoniums are fine, .............but what's an accordion?? Dave

OLD Nick, something missing in your reply??? Jim, never mind If I get a good reproduction........?? Thanks chaps Dave

Does anyone have, or can take, a good quality or high definition Rock Childey scan or photo of the maker's name 'seal' from the right hand side fretting? If so please let me know. cheers Dave E

I have twice now had fake 'jeffries' to work on, both were Lachenal, with jeff papers overlaying the original and the name 'Jeffries' stamped into the woodwork, I think one was on the flat side of the action box. Dave E