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Manor Royal March


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#19 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:21 PM

Many thanks to Leo, David,Jake and Robin for your hard work
Al


Al, they are all obviously 'to the manor born!' :D

Chris

#20 David Barnert

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 01:54 PM

Many thanks to Leo, David,Jake and Robin for your hard work
Al

You're welcome, but...

I'm with Robin on this one. I hear your reel as a jig (don't get me started on single jig vs. double jig vs. slide!). Even the original march I had to notate in 12/8 because at its heart was a jig. Jake's attempts to make a reel out of it don't work because in the first measure of his notation (and many other places) there are both triplet 8ths and duplet 8ths, which would have different lengths (3 triplets = 2 duplets) and in a reel (and also in Alan's sound file) all the 8ths have the same length.

Here it is as a reel:

X:1
T:Manor Royal Reel
M:C|
Q:250
K:C
(3GAB|"C"c2c2 "G"BcdB|"C"c2e4cd|"C"e2e2"G"defd|"C"e4-"C7"e2g2|
"F"f2e2"G"d2ef|"C"e2d2"Am7"c2de|"D7"d2c2B2ce|"G&"d2ga gfed|
"C"c2c2 "G"BcdB|"C"c2e4cd|"C"e2e2"G"defd|"C"e4-"C7"e2g2|
"F"f2e2"G"d2ef|"C"e2d2"Am7"c2G2|"F"A2fd "G"BcdB|"C"c6|:Bc|
"G7"d2dd defd|"C"e2c2-"C7"c2g2|"F"f2ff "C"edce|"Dm7"d4-"G7"d2G2|
"F"A2B2"G"c2d2|"C"e2f2"Am7"g2ec|"Dm7"A2fd "G7"BcdB|"C"c6:|

Listen to it in the tune-o-tron converter. Now that's a reel.

#21 michael stutesman

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 05:12 PM

Many thanks to Leo, David,Jake and Robin for your hard work
Al

You're welcome, but...

I'm with Robin on this one. I hear your reel as a jig (don't get me started on single jig vs. double jig vs. slide!). Even the original march I had to notate in 12/8 because at its heart was a jig. Jake's attempts to make a reel out of it don't work because in the first measure of his notation (and many other places) there are both triplet 8ths and duplet 8ths, which would have different lengths (3 triplets = 2 duplets) and in a reel (and also in Alan's sound file) all the 8ths have the same length.

Here it is as a reel:

X:1
T:Manor Royal Reel
M:C|
Q:250
K:C
(3GAB|"C"c2c2 "G"BcdB|"C"c2e4cd|"C"e2e2"G"defd|"C"e4-"C7"e2g2|
"F"f2e2"G"d2ef|"C"e2d2"Am7"c2de|"D7"d2c2B2ce|"G&"d2ga gfed|
"C"c2c2 "G"BcdB|"C"c2e4cd|"C"e2e2"G"defd|"C"e4-"C7"e2g2|
"F"f2e2"G"d2ef|"C"e2d2"Am7"c2G2|"F"A2fd "G"BcdB|"C"c6|:Bc|
"G7"d2dd defd|"C"e2c2-"C7"c2g2|"F"f2ff "C"edce|"Dm7"d4-"G7"d2G2|
"F"A2B2"G"c2d2|"C"e2f2"Am7"g2ec|"Dm7"A2fd "G7"BcdB|"C"c6:|

Listen to it in the tune-o-tron converter. Now that's a reel.



I don't quite understand the comment that in a reel all the 8ths have the same length. Isn't it intrinsic to the triplet that you spread the time normally taken up by a quarter note (or two 8th notes) evenly over three 8th notes? It seems this would occur no matter where the triplet was found. In the case of this 'reel' I also hear it as a jig but had no trouble playing it from Jakes notation. I simply played the duplets with a triplet feel.

#22 David Barnert

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 07:37 PM

I don't quite understand the comment that in a reel all the 8ths have the same length. Isn't it intrinsic to the triplet that you spread the time normally taken up by a quarter note (or two 8th notes) evenly over three 8th notes? It seems this would occur no matter where the triplet was found. In the case of this 'reel' I also hear it as a jig but had no trouble playing it from Jakes notation. I simply played the duplets with a triplet feel.

Listen to the posted sound file for the Manor Royal Reel. The first full measure (after the first three notes) has five notes in it. The first one is twice the length of any of the other four. That is, the measure has six beats in it divided among the five notes like this: 2 1 1 1 1. I hear it as two groups of three. Giving an eighth note the beat, that comes out as a quarter note and an eighth note and then a group of three eighth notes. Yum-tee teedle-tee. In my book, that's a jig.

Now look at what Jake wrote. Those same five notes are represented as a pair of eighth notes and a triplet of eighth notes. Each grouplet of notes fills the same time, half the measure. Say "Grapes and Strawberries." That's a rhythm that you don't hear a lot in either reels or jigs. It's not what Alan played in the sound file.

Now look at my abc code, above, and plug it into the tune-o-tron converter if necessary. The measure in question now has six notes. The final B, which was present in the original march version, did not fit into the jig rhythm of the "reel" version, but in a real reel (whew!), it fits, so I put it back in. The rhythm is two quarters and four eighths. "Grapes and Huckleberries." That's what a reel should sound like.

Does that make it clearer?

#23 michael stutesman

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:48 PM

I don't quite understand the comment that in a reel all the 8ths have the same length. Isn't it intrinsic to the triplet that you spread the time normally taken up by a quarter note (or two 8th notes) evenly over three 8th notes? It seems this would occur no matter where the triplet was found. In the case of this 'reel' I also hear it as a jig but had no trouble playing it from Jakes notation. I simply played the duplets with a triplet feel.

Listen to the posted sound file for the Manor Royal Reel. The first full measure (after the first three notes) has five notes in it. The first one is twice the length of any of the other four. That is, the measure has six beats in it divided among the five notes like this: 2 1 1 1 1. I hear it as two groups of three. Giving an eighth note the beat, that comes out as a quarter note and an eighth note and then a group of three eighth notes. Yum-tee teedle-tee. In my book, that's a jig.

Now look at what Jake wrote. Those same five notes are represented as a pair of eighth notes and a triplet of eighth notes. Each grouplet of notes fills the same time, half the measure. Say "Grapes and Strawberries." That's a rhythm that you don't hear a lot in either reels or jigs. It's not what Alan played in the sound file.

Now look at my abc code, above, and plug it into the tune-o-tron converter if necessary. The measure in question now has six notes. The final B, which was present in the original march version, did not fit into the jig rhythm of the "reel" version, but in a real reel (whew!), it fits, so I put it back in. The rhythm is two quarters and four eighths. "Grapes and Huckleberries." That's what a reel should sound like.

Does that make it clearer?


Unfortunately I cannot read abc code at all so that doesn't help me. I understand the difference between a jig and a reel and I agree with you that the way Alan played it sounded like a jig (or do we agree on that?). I was able to easily play it as a jig from Jakes notation by what I would call swinging the 8th note pairs to give them a triplet feel but perhaps I am just misreading the rhythm and playing it by ear. My question, though, was about your comment concerning 8th notes in a triplet being of different lengths in a jig versus a reel. Isn't a triplet three 8th notes spread evenly over one beat no matter where it is found? In your fruit example isn't a strawberry a triplet and a huckleberry four sixteenth notes?

#24 Larry Stout

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:29 PM

To my ear the march version is strongly march (which I can get easily by playing the 4/4 version of the abc). I'd agree that the "reel" version sounds more like a very fast jig, which I can get from the 12/8 version. I actually like the march version better, so that's probably the one I'll work on learning to play.

Nice tune Alan.

#25 michael stutesman

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 06:29 AM

To my ear the march version is strongly march (which I can get easily by playing the 4/4 version of the abc). I'd agree that the "reel" version sounds more like a very fast jig, which I can get from the 12/8 version. I actually like the march version better, so that's probably the one I'll work on learning to play.

Nice tune Alan.



What is the difference between a march and a reel? Is it more than just tempo?

#26 David Barnert

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 07:30 AM

Unfortunately I cannot read abc code at all so that doesn't help me.

That's why I provided the link to the converter. If you paste the abc code into the window there it shows you the conventional notation and offers a link to a midi file that plays the noise it makes.

I understand the difference between a jig and a reel and I agree with you that the way Alan played it sounded like a jig (or do we agree on that?).

Of course.

I was able to easily play it as a jig from Jakes notation by what I would call swinging the 8th note pairs to give them a triplet feel but perhaps I am just misreading the rhythm and playing it by ear.

That's exactly the issue. I am seeking precision so that even the computer (see above) will play it right, with no "ear" to guide it.

My question, though, was about your comment concerning 8th notes in a triplet being of different lengths in a jig versus a reel. Isn't a triplet three 8th notes spread evenly over one beat no matter where it is found?

I'm sorry if I wasn't being clear. I only meant that since the eighths in a triplet are of a different length than the eighths in a duplet, putting both into the same measure of a reel would make a figure with a certain rhythmic distinction that you don't find in most reels and I don't hear in "Manor Royal." I don't know if I'm being any clearer.

In your fruit example isn't a strawberry a triplet and a huckleberry four sixteenth notes?

Yes, except that I prefer to notate reels in 2/2 rather than 2/4, so that the quarter notes are written as half notes and the sixteenth notes are written as eighths. It's clearer to read (fewer beams and flags cluttering up the page). So in the abc I posted above, if you look at it in the converter, the huckleberries are eighth notes.

#27 michael stutesman

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:21 AM

Unfortunately I cannot read abc code at all so that doesn't help me.

That's why I provided the link to the converter. If you paste the abc code into the window there it shows you the conventional notation and offers a link to a midi file that plays the noise it makes.

I understand the difference between a jig and a reel and I agree with you that the way Alan played it sounded like a jig (or do we agree on that?).

Of course.

I was able to easily play it as a jig from Jakes notation by what I would call swinging the 8th note pairs to give them a triplet feel but perhaps I am just misreading the rhythm and playing it by ear.

That's exactly the issue. I am seeking precision so that even the computer (see above) will play it right, with no "ear" to guide it.

My question, though, was about your comment concerning 8th notes in a triplet being of different lengths in a jig versus a reel. Isn't a triplet three 8th notes spread evenly over one beat no matter where it is found?

I'm sorry if I wasn't being clear. I only meant that since the eighths in a triplet are of a different length than the eighths in a duplet, putting both into the same measure of a reel would make a figure with a certain rhythmic distinction that you don't find in most reels and I don't hear in "Manor Royal." I don't know if I'm being any clearer.

In your fruit example isn't a strawberry a triplet and a huckleberry four sixteenth notes?

Yes, except that I prefer to notate reels in 2/2 rather than 2/4, so that the quarter notes are written as half notes and the sixteenth notes are written as eighths. It's clearer to read (fewer beams and flags cluttering up the page). So in the abc I posted above, if you look at it in the converter, the huckleberries are eighth notes.


Yes. Thankyou. I understand now. I wasn't using the computer to play it so I understand the problem now. I also just now learned how to use the abc converter for the first time. Thankyou again.

Edited by michael stutesman, 30 March 2008 - 08:24 AM.


#28 Robin Harrison

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 12:09 PM

Very nice,David.
Here's the ABC in the key of G.............and slowed a little.

X: 1
T:Manor Royal Reel
M:4/4
Q:1/4=200
K:G
(3DEF|"G"G2G2 "D"FGAF|"G"G2B4GA|"G"B2B2"D"ABcA|"G"B4-"G7"B2d2|
"C"c2B2"D"A2Bc|"G"B2A2"Em7"G2AB|"A7"A2G2F2GB|"D&"A2de dcBA|
"G"G2G2 "D"FGAF|"G"G2B4GA|"G"B2B2"D"ABcA|"G"B4-"G7"B2d2|
"C"c2B2"D"A2Bc|"G"B2A2"Em7"G2D2|"C"E2cA "D"FGAF|"G"G6|:FG|
"D7"A2AA ABcA|"G"B2G2-"G7"G2d2|"C"c2cc "G"BAGB|"Am7"A4-"D7"A2D2|
"C"E2F2"D"G2A2|"G"B2c2"Em7"d2BG|"Am7"E2cA "D7"FGAF|"G"G6:|


Also plays very well in D on the anglo.................

X: 1
T:Manor Royal Reel
M:4/4
Q:1/4=200
K:D
(3ABc|"D"d2d2 "A"cdec|"D"d2f4de|"D"f2f2"A"efge|"D"f4-"D7"f2a2|
"G"g2f2"A"e2fg|"D"f2e2"Bm7"d2ef|"E7"e2d2c2df|"A&"e2ab agfe|
"D"d2d2 "A"cdec|"D"d2f4de|"D"f2f2"A"efge|"D"f4-"D7"f2a2|
"G"g2f2"A"e2fg|"D"f2e2"Bm7"d2A2|"G"B2ge "A"cdec|"D"d6|:cd|
"A7"e2ee efge|"D"f2d2-"D7"d2a2|"G"g2gg "D"fedf|"Em7"e4-"A7"e2A2|
"G"B2c2"A"d2e2|"D"f2g2"Bm7"a2fd|"Em7"B2ge "A7"cdec|"D"d6:|


Robin

Edited by Robin Harrison, 30 March 2008 - 12:16 PM.


#29 Anglogeezer

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 03:33 PM

I'm sorry to be returning to this again BUT in my haste to post the ABC's of the Manor Royal Reel as posted by Leo here :-

Alan has forwarded another tune for publication. He assures me is the same one as above played as a reel.

With thanks to Henk van AAlten for his great help. From his suggestion Audacity is a great program for manipulating MP3 files.

Thanks :D
Leo


****I fear I got it wrong, a multitude of apologies!! Please put it down to my youthful inexperience!! Calling it a Reel led me astray is my excuse.
After continuing to listen to it and play along to it I've come to the conclusion that it is, wait for it, more like a Hornpipe.
The first notes of the quaver pairs are dotted and there's a multitude of triplets.


Here is the PDF for my version of the

and here is the ABC ....(for convenience bars are numbered 1-16 above the first chord )

X:1
T:Manor Royal Hornpipe
C:Alan Day
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:120
K:G
|:"D"(3DEF|"1""G"G>G (3FGA G>DD2|"2""G"B>B (3ABc "Bm"B4|"3""D7" c>c (3ABc "G"B>A (3GAB|"4""D7"A>G F>GA2(3DEF|
"5""G"G>G (3FGA G>DD2|"6""G"B>B (3ABc "Bm"B4|"7""D7" c>c (3ABc "G"B>A G>D|"8""Am"E>c A>F "G"G2 F>G|
"9""D7"A>A (3ABc "G"B>B (3Bcd|"10""C"c>c (3BAG "D7"A2 D2|"11""Em"E>F G>A "G"B>c (3dBG |"12""Am"E>c A>F "G"G2 F>G|
"13""D7"A>A (3ABc "G"B>B (3Bcd|"14""C"c>c (3BAG "D7"A2 D2|"15""Em"E>F G>A "G"B>c (3dBG|"16"[1"Am" E>c A>F "G"G2:|[2"Am" E>c A>F "G"G4||


I've played it through the Tune-a-Tron Midi converter and it's a dead close match.
All I have to do now is work the accompaniment!
regards

Jake

Edited by Jake, 03 April 2008 - 04:05 PM.


#30 Alan Day

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 04:40 PM

Thanks Jake for another version.
I will just name the tunes in future. Less controversial.
Al

#31 Leonard

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:23 PM

After continuing to listen to it and play along to it I've come to the conclusion that it is, wait for it, more like a Hornpipe.
The first notes of the quaver pairs are dotted and there's a multitude of triplets.


While I just finished writing it down as the jig, David B. was talking about: :unsure:

X:1
T:Manor Royal Jig
C:Alan Day
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:160
K:G
DEF|G2G FGA| G2D D2G|B2B ABc| B3-B2d|c2B
ABc|B2A [1 GAB|A2G F2G| A3 :|[2 G2D|E2c A2F| G3
|:F2G| A2A ABc| B2B Bcd|c2c BAG| A3-A2D|E2F G2A| B2c dBG|E2c A2F|G3 :|]



#32 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:32 PM

What next? The Manor Royal Waltz? :unsure:

Chris

#33 Alan Day

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 01:56 AM

It would be nice if somebody (other than me) posted these other versions for us to listen to.
Al

#34 David Barnert

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 12:47 PM

It would be nice if somebody (other than me) posted these other versions for us to listen to.

I am having trouble posting attachments these days (reached my limit). However:

You can listen to any of the tunes posted here (or anywhere else) in abc format by following these simple (I hope) instructions.

An abc file always starts with "X:" and continues to just before the next blank line (or the end of the post). Place your cursor to the left of the initial X, press and hold the (left) mouse button as you drag the cursor diagonally down and to the right to the end of the notation. Release the button when the entire abc file is visibly selected. Choose "Copy" from the "File" menu (or control c on a PC or command c on a mac).

Now go to the Tune-O-Tron ABC Convert-A-Matic page. While you're there, consider bookmarking it. Click the mouse inside the large blank rectangle in the middle of the page. You will then see an insertion point (short vertical line like when you're typing here) blinking in the upper left corner.

Choose "Paste" from the "File" menu (or control v on a PC or command v on a mac). The rectangle will then fill with the abc code. Below it, click "Submit." Next you will see the tune in conventional notation. Above it are three links for "MIDI music file,""PDF Sheet Music," and "ABC source." Click the MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) link and you will hear the tune, sounding like it's played on a piano. If it sounds awkward, chances are it's because of imprecise abc coding. I always make sure mine play just as I intend before I post them, so any of the abc's I've posted above should play nicely.

If you like what you hear and want it on paper, click the "PDF" (Portable Document Format) link for a high-resolution graphic file of the music notation you can print. The "ABC Source" link just gives you back the code you pasted in.

Al, I'd love to hear you say you tried this and it works.

#35 Alan Day

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 05:16 PM

I have followed your instructions but sorry Dave I am going to send you screaming into the distance.
I highlighted the file as you said, but copy was not in File, but in Edit and from then on nothing and the final words that no images were available.
So I am doing something dramatically wrong.
Sorry Dave just for you I tried.
Al

#36 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 06:48 PM

I have followed your instructions but sorry Dave I am going to send you screaming into the distance.
I highlighted the file as you said, but copy was not in File, but in Edit and from then on nothing and the final words that no images were available.
So I am doing something dramatically wrong?
Sorry Dave just for you I tried.
Al


Well, I tried it and it worked first time for me Al. It's a piece of cake! I don't know what you might be doing wrong. Are you familiar with copy and paste? Once you have highlighted the text, keep the cursor on the highlighted text - very important - right click your mouse and you should see 'copy' come up in the menu. Click 'copy'. This will save the text ready for pasting. If you don't see 'copy' then something odd is happening. Next, access the tune-o-tron converter, place your cursor in the rectangle, right click your mouse to bring up the menu which should show 'paste' and click 'paste'. It should now paste the chosen abc notation into the rectangle. If so, click on the submit button which will bring up the headings for Midi, PDF, etc and then click on Midi to play the tune with Windows media player or whatever player on your computer is the default one. And, bingo!! Hope this works for you, cos it worked for me and I am a novice at his sort of thing too.

Chris

PS Jake's hornpipe version with chords is very jolly.




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