Playing Across the Rows

[michael sam wild]

As a very long-time student at Noel's classes and advocate for his program, I have made my opinion known here previously and won't bore you with it again. But you should know that some years ago, Noel was working on just the book that many of you seem to favor. One year he took that manuscript with him to Willie Week and someone stole it. Since that time, he has -- with fits and starts -- been working to recreate the project again, but it is slow going and often has to take a back seat to the daily grind of earning a living and raising a family as a single parent. There are also supposed to be people in Ireland helping him with the computer work to transcribe the appropriate tunes.

 

Hopefully he will be able to bring this project to publication soon and we can put this recurring issue behind us. In the meantime, I would like to encourage anyone who is interested in learning anglo concertina from a master, to sign up for Noel's course. I've been doing them every year since 1996 -- save one -- and each year is a new treat for me.

 

Best regards to all,

 

Ross Schlabach

 

 

Thanks Ross that's good news. Must get to a course

[m3838]

I think this approach makes sense if you begin with learning to play in the key of C, then progressively explore other keys.

This is how things are presented in "generalist" methods (for instance B. Levy's one).

However, beginners who want to learn the Irish style want to play directly in the key of D, for which there is no natural

solution on a C/G instrument. So the issue of fingerings is not at all secondary, as every beginner has to face very

early in his learning the puzzle of playing in D, and has to find a solution, either his own or the one taught by some authority.

 

 

Of course. That's exactly my point.

A beginner should be concerned with playing that song about Lambs in musical way. There is no Irish session that plays this song in D on CG instrument, is there?

No wonder so many of us suck. And if you suck at cherished pastime, what's the reason to wake up in the morning? Learn the goddamn instrument first. You'll join the ranks later. Spend a year playing along the rows just to understand how Anglo works, so it becomes natural. Than playing across will be no brainer.

One thing is to learn from a Master (it should make you free, right?) and another to become slave of specific fingering for specific key. As far as I'm concerned, Irish music is NOT played in D only. Searching internet libraries for Irish music gives tunes in many keys.

Here, for example.

Or here, accordion music.

However with abundance of Irish folk scores on the Net, I didn't find many specifically Anglo scores.

The Bramich book lists Gmaj, Amn, Cmin, Dmaj,

[David Levine]

I don't know if the above should be taken at all seriously since the poster knows little about ITM. Scottish bagpipe music in Eb and C minor has absolutely nothing to do with ITM. Ditto for Breizh Partitions (French) and Greensleeves (English) and When Irish Eyes are Smiling (written by Chauncy Olcott, of Buffalo, New York), which M3838 has put forth as having something to do with what we are talking about. It's obvious that M3838 has never played in a traditional Irish session.

 

Spend a year playing along the rows just to understand how Anglo works, so it becomes natural. Than playing across will be no brainer.

If you prefer Chris Droney's style then playing up and down the rows makes some sense. But this won't necessarily help you to learn to play ITM in a cross-row style. It will probably get in the way. It's waste of time for an adult to play in the home rows if the ultimate objective is to play ITM smoothly and at a good tempo.

 

One thing is to learn from a Master (it should make you free, right?) and another to become slave of specific fingering for specific key.

 

Classical players slavishly learn specific fingering from master musicians. This is precisely the reason to attend a workshop or to take lessons from a master. If more players became slaves to specific fingering techniques at some point in their musical journey they would be better players.

 

I don't know what M3838 means by "free." If by "free" he means "expressive" then it is clear to me that you cannot be free without a mastery of technique. Mastery of technique is certainly not free. Remember the old "10,000 Hour of Practice vs. Innate Talent" thread? In case you've forgotten, or learned nothing from it, please Google this: "10,000 hours of practice."

[david fabre]

I agree that the collection of tunes indicated by m3838 does not correspond to what we call session repertoire.

However I beleive his advice make sense for someone (like me) who is not exclusively concerned with irish music

but wants to explore the full possibilities of his instrument. In that case it would be a good advice to first learn to play

it in the way it was designed to be played, and in a second step in the tortuous way into which irish musicians have deviated it.

 

 

Remember the old "10,000 Hour of Practice vs. Innate Talent" thread? In case you've forgotten, or learned nothing from it, please Google this: "10,000 hours of practice."

 

This one ? (not sure as google was of no help to locate it)

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8476&st=0

Could you please make a digest

[david fabre]

As a very long-time student at Noel's classes and advocate for his program, I have made my opinion known here previously and won't bore you with it again. But you should know that some years ago, Noel was working on just the book that many of you seem to favor. One year he took that manuscript with him to Willie Week and someone stole it. Since that time, he has -- with fits and starts -- been working to recreate the project again, but it is slow going and often has to take a back seat to the daily grind of earning a living and raising a family as a single parent. There are also supposed to be people in Ireland helping him with the computer work to transcribe the appropriate tunes.

 

Hopefully he will be able to bring this project to publication soon and we can put this recurring issue behind us. In the meantime, I would like to encourage anyone who is interested in learning anglo concertina from a master, to sign up for Noel's course. I've been doing them every year since 1996 -- save one -- and each year is a new treat for me.

 

Best regards to all,

 

Ross Schlabach

 

Ross, thanks for these excellent news !

It seems that in this interesting discussion we all agree on the point that Noel should publish his method.

So, this should close the debate.

I'm sorry to learn that he was stolen the manuscript. Really pathetic.

David

[JimLucas]

I agree that the collection of tunes indicated by m3838 does not correspond to what we call session repertoire.

However I beleive his advice make sense for someone (like me) who is not exclusively concerned with irish music

but wants to explore the full possibilities of his instrument.

Maybe so, but is that relevant to a discussion of Noel Hill's cross-row method?

 

...someone (like me) who ... wants to explore the full possibilities of his instrument.

Not sure of the logic here.

If you want to explore the "full possibilities", it's better to start out with a more limited approach than Noel's Irish-only style?

 

In that case it would be a good advice to first learn to play it in the way it was designed to be played,....

Depends on what "it" is, I think. The 30-button anglo was indeed designed to be played in many keys, and so of necessity not just along the rows. The 20-button, on the other hand, seems to have been intended at least as much for playing chords as for playing melody. Should beginners be told to forget about playing melody until they've mastered playing chords? (That's not exactly a rhetorical question. I'm sure that some folks would seriously answer yes.)

 

Remember the old "10,000 Hour of Practice vs. Innate Talent" thread?

This one ? (not sure as google was of no help to locate it)

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8476&st=0

Could you please make a digest

• In how many volumes?
  
• Wasn't that already done?
  I.e., like cud-chewing animals: digest, regurgitate, chew, swallow, repeat the sequence several times.

[Azalin]

I don't know if the above should be taken at all seriously since the poster knows little about ITM

 

Yeah, when someone starts talking of songs instead of tunes, and uses the expression "irish folk" when speaking of irish music, you know you'd be wasting your time discussing with him/her

[Robert Booth]

OK, so i've been reading things here for years, now, about Mr. Hill's system (sorry David- I didnt take time to read your long post detailing it. Kinda wish I had but...), and just from what has been said and discussed, I'm still quite vague as to just how it's all done, so I don't think there's that much danger of the system being inappropriately disseminated.

Withal, I've been entertaining the walls of my living room for a nimber of years, all in my self-taught up-and-downthherows fashion, and the question comes up: If I were to drive over to Newberg, OR -an hours drive- and participate with Mr. Hill, how hard would it be to untie all the row playing reflexes that I've developed, and relearn in the Noel Hill system? have any of you done this? How'd it go?

RB

[JimLucas]

I don't know if the above should be taken at all seriously since the poster knows little about ITM

Yeah, when someone starts talking of songs instead of tunes, and uses the expression "irish folk" when speaking of irish music, you know you'd be wasting your time discussing with him/her

Gee, you mean those songs I sing, and at "Irish" sessions, no less, aren't Irish?

Then again, around here we say we play -- and sing -- "Irish traditional music", not "ITM".

[Azalin]

Gee, you mean those songs I sing, and at "Irish" sessions, no less, aren't Irish?

Then again, around here we say we play -- and sing -- "Irish traditional music", not "ITM".

 

:-) No, I meant, someone who really plays ITM will call a melody a tune, not a song... of course, if you're singing, it's definitely a song ;-)

[Azalin]

If I were to drive over to Newberg, OR -an hours drive- and participate with Mr. Hill, how hard would it be to untie all the row playing reflexes that I've developed, and relearn in the Noel Hill system? have any of you done this? How'd it go?

RB

 

Well, I haven't learned Noel Hill system, but a year and a half ago I was mostly playing "along the C row", and a couple of workshops in a festival convinced me of relearning "across the row". It was painful, especially in the first six months after that, but now I can I say I play at ease "cross row", pretty much being able to use any button anywhere. Believe me, it was worth the pain, because there are many tunes now accessible, I can play with desired drive and effect, I could never have done with my old "limited" fingering.

 

Since the day I started playing concertina about 5 years ago I knew going 'cross row' was inevitable for me in the long run, but coming from playing whistle, I was too scared/lazy of/with the concept of having more than one button that plays the same note.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Azalin

[m3838]

I don't know if the above should be taken at all seriously since the poster knows little about ITM. Scottish bagpipe music

All I did (in case you haven't noticed) is to google for a second for "Irish music". And I found tunes in many keys. Which is an answer to the question "should I learn cross fingering to play in D on C/G? That answer is "Not necessarily". Do what's easiest at first, then go to next step.

If you prefer Chris Droney's style then playing up and down the rows makes some sense. But this won't necessarily help you to learn to play ITM in a cross-row style.

 

Playing up the rows can't help to play across. It's not the point. The point is to learn the essence of the instrument, particularly Anglo push/pull diatonic concertina. 20 button will be more than necessary for a lo-ong time if one is concerned with musicality.

 

It's waste of time for an adult to play in the home rows if the ultimate objective is to play ITM smoothly and at a good tempo.

 

To play smoothly one must choose English. The whole reason for an Anglo is to play with inherent rhythm.

Classical players slavishly learn specific fingering from master musicians.

 

I don't know much about it, but classical music (I was told by a pro piano player) is exceptionally traditional. A professional musician is part of a long and laborious pipeline. Having said that, my accordion teacher used to stress importance of fingering for "particular passage". Next passage would require distinctively different fingering. He always stressed that fingering must be reasonable and go on telling about silly war of attrition between advocates of 3 finger vs. 5 finger playing in Russian bayan school.

 

If more players became slaves to specific fingering techniques at some point in their musical journey they would be better players.

 

Look above at my previous response. Your statement is not true or incorrectly formulated. There is this saying, "instead of giving fish to poor, teach them to catch fish", or something like it.

 

I don't know what M3838 means by "free." If by "free" he means "expressive" then it is clear to me that you cannot be free without a mastery of technique.

 

 

No, not expressive. Free means using reason and not adhere to any dogma. You are the player of your instrument, not your Master.

But we have long and rich tradition of disagreeing with David, is it not?

 

 

[m3838]

Well, I haven't learned Noel Hill system, but a year and a half ago I was mostly playing "along the C row", and a couple of workshops in a festival convinced me of relearning "across the row". It was painful....

 

 

Again, it's extremely individual. I used to play anglo, still have my 20 button brass reeder. As I never cared for melody only, I had to adapt cross row fingering from the start. My main playing was done along the C row, but with so many (chords on the left side) deviations into G row, that some folks were asking: "Where did you learn cross row fingering?". It usually made me dumbstruck. I guess it is possible to learn to play in the C row and NEVER need F#, but I have hard time digesting this fact. What if you will run into yet another fingering system, will you have to painfully relearn again? What's this big deal?

But of course, why are you even discussing it with me, disgusting amateur, who doesn't know the difference between a tune and a melody, Irish folk and ITM. Speaking of slavery.

[catty]

I'm a player of many different instruments in many different styles, coming to concertinas more recently. For me, cross-rowing is to "home key rowing" as, for instance, flamenco guitar is to classical guitar, or Sruggs-style banjo is to clawhammer banjo, or fiddle is to violin: in each case, (for all intensive purposes) the same instrument, but the technical playing approach different enough to make it feel like virtually a different instrument altogether.

 

Familiarity with one style of playing on a given instrument can certainly help with facility of another style, but can also be a hinderence. If one aspires to play ITM, I would agree with whomever said "skip home-rowing and go for a 30b cross row style from tne start."

Edited April 30, 2010 by catty

[Rod]

Well, I haven't learned Noel Hill system, but a year and a half ago I was mostly playing "along the C row", and a couple of workshops in a festival convinced me of relearning "across the row". It was painful....

 

 

Again, it's extremely individual. I used to play anglo, still have my 20 button brass reeder. As I never cared for melody only, I had to adapt cross row fingering from the start. My main playing was done along the C row, but with so many (chords on the left side) deviations into G row, that some folks were asking: "Where did you learn cross row fingering?". It usually made me dumbstruck. I guess it is possible to learn to play in the C row and NEVER need F#, but I have hard time digesting this fact. What if you will run into yet another fingering system, will you have to painfully relearn again? What's this big deal?

But of course, why are you even discussing it with me, disgusting amateur, who doesn't know the difference between a tune and a melody, Irish folk and ITM. Speaking of slavery.

 

'Across the Rows'.....To play an Anglo without wishing to play 'across the rows' is surely the equivalent of being satisfied to play the piano without ever using any of the black notes, and to play single-note melody without wishing to incorporate some chordal accompaniment is surely the equivalent of being satisfied to play the piano with the two index fingers only. What a depressing prospect or have I missed the point ?

[ceemonster]

Well, I haven't learned Noel Hill system, but a year and a half ago I was mostly playing "along the C row", and a couple of workshops in a festival convinced me of relearning "across the row". It was painful....

 

 

Again, it's extremely individual. I used to play anglo, still have my 20 button brass reeder. As I never cared for melody only, I had to adapt cross row fingering from the start. My main playing was done along the C row, but with so many (chords on the left side) deviations into G row, that some folks were asking: "Where did you learn cross row fingering?". It usually made me dumbstruck. I guess it is possible to learn to play in the C row and NEVER need F#, but I have hard time digesting this fact. What if you will run into yet another fingering system, will you have to painfully relearn again? What's this big deal?

But of course, why are you even discussing it with me, disgusting amateur, who doesn't know the difference between a tune and a melody, Irish folk and ITM. Speaking of slavery.

 

'Across the Rows'.....To play an Anglo without wishing to play 'across the rows' is surely the equivalent of being satisfied to play the piano without ever using any of the black notes, and to play single-note melody without wishing to incorporate some chordal accompaniment is surely the equivalent of being satisfied to play the piano with the two index fingers only. What a depressing prospect or have I missed the point ?

[or have I missed the point?]

 

well...you could look at it in a couple of ways. one way is, the fact that "on the rows versus across the rows" is even a dichotomy or a debate is kind of a wacky historical accident. as noted earlier----these fuller concertinas were augmented over time for british players (and german bandoneon players with the bando) who were doing more complex music on them. they came to be precisely so you could have more ergonomic convenience, but most important, more expressive-phrasing choices. but after that fad waned, used 30 and 30-plus instruments made their way to ireland very cheap, and the rural farm folks who nabbed them had been playing "on the rows" on the much smaller ones that didn't have those choices. so you have this historical accident that in irish music, the history of the concertina has all these exclamation points in it regarding what is often presented as the "big discovery" of cross-row playing, or "who discovered" cross-row playing, when that was what the fuller instruments were for in the first place. throw into that mix the fact that, hey, forget rural ireland a hundred years ago---even now, modern learners knowing nothing about the instrument pick up the anglo and often analogize to the harmonica, and default straight to playing "on the rows" out of laziness or comfort-zone issues. i personally would not want to be limited to playing along the rows, and jumped (largely) from diatonic box to concertina precisely because there are more notes placed in both directions, and thus more fluid phrasing choices, than on box. and that type of phrasing is my aesthetic jones.

 

but looking at it another way---without saying this is some kind of studied quaintness, or studied primitivism, there are musicians (not to mention dancers) who prefer that "on the row" back-and-forth sound. i find the lack of directional choice infuriating on b/c box, but b/c is like a PA compared to playing in D on a c#/d or playing a one-row melodeon, and some players and listeners prefer that one-row sound. hey, there has been kind of a counter-trend of irish box virtuosos abandoning the more fluid sound you get with the slightly-more-cross-row b/c to play in the old one-row press-draw style in D on a c#/d. so that's a long way of saying, well, actually, there are people who want "to play Anglo without playing across the rows." i'm not one of them... but it's a perfectly legitimate aesthetic position.

[david fabre]

To fix our ideas about the specific question of keys in irish music, I did a little statistics

over the 9350 tunes on "thesession.org", which I'm sure all will agree is a good source for session "tunes".

Classifying with key signature here is the results :

 

1 sharp (Gmajor, and related modes: Ador, Emin, Dmix) : 3800 (41% of total)

2 sharps (Dmajor and related modes) : 3659 (39%)

3 sharps (Amajor and related modes) : 722 (8%)

No accidentals (Cmajor, etc..) : 654 (7%)

1 flat (Fmajor, etc...) 341 (4%)

Other keys : 223 (2%)

[Azalin]

To fix our ideas about the specific question of keys in irish music, I did a little statistics

over the 9350 tunes on "thesession.org", which I'm sure all will agree is a good source for session "tunes".

Classifying with key signature here is the results :

 

1 sharp (Gmajor, and related modes: Ador, Emin, Dmix) : 3800 (41% of total)

2 sharps (Dmajor and related modes) : 3659 (39%)

3 sharps (Amajor and related modes) : 722 (8%)

No accidentals (Cmajor, etc..) : 654 (7%)

1 flat (Fmajor, etc...) 341 (4%)

Other keys : 223 (2%)

 

Interesting stats David. I often heard that a "D" whistle would allow you to play 80% of all tunes... it seems to be exactly true, the same applies to a 20b C/G concertina!

 

PS: Oops, I was in the shower and realized I'm wrong with the 20b, since there's no C# and has a Fnat etc, you'd be under 80%.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Azalin