C/g V G/d Anlgo

[frogspawn]

I can't help feeling that for English folk music an instrument with a home key in C (i.e. a C/G Anglo) is somewhat anachronistic given the modern shift to G and D as preferred keys. This might well suggest that a G/D Anglo would be more appropriate, but it struck me that if one is going to be playing mainly in G (the key I sing in) a C/G is actually more convenient if you are playing chords or octaves as you can keep the melody entirely on the right hand (and octaves on separate hands). A G/D would be equally convenient for playing across the rows in D, but not in G.

 

It's a pity that concertinas weren't normally produced with extra low buttons on the right duplicating the top buttons on the left!

 

Richard

[m3838]

It's a pity that concertinas weren't normally produced with extra low buttons on the right duplicating the top buttons on the left!

 

Richard

 

They have. Only they didn't stop there and the instrument has become a bit larger. it's called a Bandoneon. Or Chemnitzer. Interesting, if things didn't go the way they did in Germany, the instrument may have been called KarlMarxSchtadter. (attempt on humor )

[geoffwright]

Melodions should be able to play in C - they are made with accidentals nowadays. It strikes me that picking a concertina to suit melodions is an odd way to carry on.

Aren't 30 key+ Concertinas based around C because they are fully chromatic and C has no sharps/flats?

[frogspawn]

Melodions should be able to play in C - they are made with accidentals nowadays. It strikes me that picking a concertina to suit melodions is an odd way to carry on.

Aren't 30 key+ Concertinas based around C because they are fully chromatic and C has no sharps/flats?

 

 

I saw a session in Hastings once in which somebody was playing an Anglo in C. Unfortunately he was the only person playing! He told me he plays in C for his Morris side until other musicians turn up. Then he stops...

 

I have heard other musicians joking about deliberately not playing in G or D in order to upset melodeon players, but that says it all.

[hjcjones]

The session I usually play in is mostly chromatic instruments - fiddles, banjos, English concertinas, flutes and whistles etc. Besides myself, there are a couple of other melodeon players, but they also play chromatic instruments, so they have the option of playing in other keys. But we still play nearly everything in G and D, and if I play something in C on the anglo most of the other musicians won't join in.

 

The other night I was playing a set on G/D melodeon and went into a tune in C, just to confuse the other melodeon players

[PeterT]

I saw a session in Hastings once in which somebody was playing an Anglo in C. Unfortunately he was the only person playing! He told me he plays in C for his Morris side until other musicians turn up. Then he stops...

 

I have heard other musicians joking about deliberately not playing in G or D in order to upset melodeon players, but that says it all.

I wonder what the same melodeon players would do if the fiddle players played a tune in A . Think I know the answer!

 

Surely it's good to play in different keys; something of a challenge. On the melodeon, if not all of the notes are available (i.e. basic two row) what is wrong with just missing out the notes which you don't have, and playing the rest? It's a bit like learning a new tune in a session, where you learn it, bit by bit, and end up playing most of it.

 

I love my C/G in a session. Yes, it sounds best in C, and, given the opportunity, I play it in C, but then tunes in D become interesting (like playing in A on a G/D box).

 

Regards,

Peter.

Edited December 10, 2006 by PeterT

[Richard Morse]

I can't help feeling that for English folk music an instrument with a home key in C (i.e. a C/G Anglo) is somewhat anachronistic given the modern shift to G and D as preferred keys.

When did that occur? My tune books that go back to the 1850's show a marked preference for G and D. If there ever was a shift, it was a looooong time ago.

 

-- Rich --

[frogspawn]

I can't help feeling that for English folk music an instrument with a home key in C (i.e. a C/G Anglo) is somewhat anachronistic given the modern shift to G and D as preferred keys.

When did that occur? My tune books that go back to the 1850's show a marked preference for G and D. If there ever was a shift, it was a looooong time ago.

 

-- Rich --

 

I seem to remember reading this somewhere. I will try to find more evidence. But two possible bits of evidence spring to mind:

 

(1) Kimber certainly played in C (if only because he had a 20-key C/G Anglo) but few Morris musicians would do this today.

 

(2) Wasn't the Clarke tin whistle originally made in C?

 

Richard

[geoffwright]

If C instruments (anglos) are expected to play in F,G,D and A (yes, these are popular session keys in Great Britain) why cannot melodions? Isn't cross-fingering allowed?

[Richard Morse]

If C instruments (anglos) are expected to play in F,G,D and A (yes, these are popular session keys in Great Britain) why cannot melodions? Isn't cross-fingering allowed?

The typical 2-row melodeon has only 2 buttons for the accidental notes rather than the 10 buttons a 30-button anglo has. With only 4 accidental notes the melodeon is fully chromatic for only part of a single octave - far too little to play most tunes in keys other than it's home keys.

 

-- Rich --

[Theo]

If C instruments (anglos) are expected to play in F,G,D and A (yes, these are popular session keys in Great Britain) why cannot melodions? Isn't cross-fingering allowed?

The typical 2-row melodeon has only 2 buttons for the accidental notes rather than the 10 buttons a 30-button anglo has. With only 4 accidental notes the melodeon is fully chromatic for only part of a single octave - far too little to play most tunes in keys other than it's home keys.

 

-- Rich --

 

I've observed that in England many (most?) D/G melodeon players prefer to play up and down the rows, in D and G, and don't play many many tunes in minor keys or A major. As a result they have not internalised the fingering patterns for these other keys so they are unwilling to attempt even simple pentatonic or mixolidian tunes in A when they crop up is sessions etc.

[Dan Worrall]

I can't help feeling that for English folk music an instrument with a home key in C (i.e. a C/G Anglo) is somewhat anachronistic given the modern shift to G and D as preferred keys.

When did that occur? My tune books that go back to the 1850's show a marked preference for G and D. If there ever was a shift, it was a looooong time ago.

 

-- Rich --

 

I seem to remember reading this somewhere. I will try to find more evidence. But two possible bits of evidence spring to mind:

 

(1) Kimber certainly played in C (if only because he had a 20-key C/G Anglo) but few Morris musicians would do this today.

 

(2) Wasn't the Clarke tin whistle originally made in C?

 

-------------------------------------------------

The books from the 1850's showing a preference for G and D were fiddle tune books (eg, Coles Fiddle Tunes, the "Fiddler's Bible") or those attuned to the general market, which was of course dominated by the fiddle (eg, O'Neill's Music of Ireland). G and D are of course the easy keys on the fiddle. If however you look at the many anglo-german concertina tutors of that century...like Howe's and Segwicks in the US or Coleman's in Britain, there is the same repertoire of dance music, hundreds of dance tunes pitched in C and G. Howe in particular put his tune books for various instruments in the keys of the audience he was pitching to (G,D for fiddle, Bb for Brass, etc. He was the tune collector and mass music publisher whose tunes form the base of Howe's Fiddle Tunes, later copied into Ryan's, Coles', and partly even into O'Neill's). Those mid-nineteenth century players of the german concertina were playing almost exclusively in C and G.

 

Clarke's whistle indeed also originally was in C, perhaps to make it easy to play with other storebought mechanical instruments of the era....concertinas and melodeons. Mary MacNamara has spoken in her workshops about the many old tunes in East Clare that are to this day played in C, and everyone, including fiddlers, will play them in that key there. She thinks that is because of the past prevalence of concertinas in the music there. Usually, it is the opposite of course....the fiddle playing population is vastly dominant, so G and D is what is played.

 

Kimber played all in C and G on his CG instrument (originally a two row). His recordings are all solo, and that is likely how he played for the morris (ie, solo). But he also played for country dances, and it is almost certain that any accompanying fiddlers would have tuned to him. The interview with the mid-nineteenth nineteenth century fellow who played on the ferry boats in London (discussed in another thread some time ago) showed that he played often with a fiddle player, who almost certainly tuned down to his CG (the concertinist was using an imported german two row).

 

In those days, the concertina was the latest hot thing, and a street fiddler or banjo player would think nothing of tuning down a bit to accomodate it (a trained violin player might of course just play in C without re-tuning). But that is not likely in any sessions today, where we play with many more types of instruments than were common back then....and where the concertina is distinctly in the minority. Hence the three row concertina, and the Irish cross row fingering style that eschews the home rows to enable a multitude of keys. And hence also the GD melodeons and anglos in Britain, which if memory serves correctly, are rather more modern tunings for these instruments. The fiddlers have won, hands down!

[Chris Timson]

Just one point which hasn't been mentioned. I actually prefer the sound of a G/D anglo, it's altogether richer and nicer than a C/G. You will say: ah but the piercing sound cuts through the session better, and I reply: isn't that being a bit anti-social? The G/D anglo may be a bit of a Johnny-come-lately in the concertina world, but I for one am glad that the option is here at all.

 

Chris

[Dave Prebble]

Just one point which hasn't been mentioned. I actually prefer the sound of a G/D anglo, it's altogether richer and nicer than a C/G. You will say: ah but the piercing sound cuts through the session better, and I reply: isn't that being a bit anti-social? The G/D anglo may be a bit of a Johnny-come-lately in the concertina world, but I for one am glad that the option is here at all.

 

Chris

 

I couldn't agree more Chris.

 

C/Gs played 'single note style' in English sessions put me in mind of me of the nuclear bomb..... It is nice to know you have the 'fire power in reserve but not too popular if deployed on every possible occasion.

 

English sessions are in nature generally more sedate, chordal and with more emphasis on the beat than would be the case at most irish sessions. The introduction of a 'Ferrari class' C/G anglo (or, God forbid, several) played single note style, flat out and bellows straining, reeds screaming and an octave above most other instruments is positively anti-social and drives folks away from sessions. Just watch folks hunching up to neighbours or spreading out their gear to prevent a player sitting next to them and see folks gravitating towards the other side of the room when one fires up because they simply cannot hear what they themselves are playing!

 

All too often such players also have a grounding in Irish music and just cannot resist the urge to 'wind things up' to the sort of speeds they are used to in Irish sessions.

 

To my mind, folks should be playing to contribute to the total sound mix, rather than to cut through or hijack it.

 

Give me the full rich tones of a G/D box and a nice steady session any day.

 

regards

 

Dave

[Richard Morse]

The books from the 1850's showing a preference for G and D were fiddle tune books (eg, Coles Fiddle Tunes, the "Fiddler's Bible") or those attuned to the general market, which was of course dominated by the fiddle (eg, O'Neill's Music of Ireland). G and D are of course the easy keys on the fiddle.

I guess my copy of Howe's was one for the "general market" - it says for "violin, flute, clarinet, cornet, fife, flageolet pr any treble instrument" - and all the tunes are in the keys one would typically find people playing them in today with the possible exception that the Scottish section has far fewer A tunes than I'm used to seeing around these days.

 

So these settings were fiddle-driven? I would assume that if the tunes were originally composed on fiddle then it would make them "right" yet if they came from another instrument and were fiddlized, then there'd be translation loss or drift making them "different" (possibly "wrong" even). On some tunes we know where they came from and others we can tell by the cadences what instrument they were born on. Other tunes translate well enough to be multimorphus or so poorly to be distressed beyond recognition.

If however you look at the many anglo-german concertina tutors of that century...like Howe's and Segwicks in the US or Coleman's in Britain, there is the same repertoire of dance music, hundreds of dance tunes pitched in C and G.

While I haven't seen a concertina version of Howe's, I've seen quite a few 1800's concertina tutors - but at the most they had only a token couple dance tunes in them (far from the same repertoire).

 

-- Rich --

[Stephen Chambers]

... it's called a ... Chemnitzer. Interesting, if things didn't go the way they did in Germany, the instrument may have been called KarlMarxSchtadter. (attempt on humor )

 

Maybe I should explain that one for the uninitiated?

 

The Chemnitzer concertina was named after the town of Chemnitz in Saxony, where the German concertina originated, but under Communism that town was renamed Karl Marx Stadt (Karl Marx Town), though it has now reverted to its original name. Last time I was there, they were still trying to decide what to do with the gigantic head of Karl Marx in the town centre, to which rallies etc. were formerly held. Some wanted it removed (but that would be quite an enormous undertaking), or blown up (far too dangerous), whilst others suggested that the ivy should simply be allowed to grow over it.

[Dave Higham]

Give me the full rich tones of a G/D box and a nice steady session any day.

 

Ah, a man after my own heart! But then, I'm a Yorkshireman too. Being the proud owner of a Jeffries G/D and a C/G. And even though I don't play either of them as much as I should, I'm not about to give either of them up because some young upstart thinks that I should, so that he could play (totally inappropriate) Irish diddly-diddly stuff on them! (Nudge-nudge, wink-wink).

I acquired the G/D a long time ago (from Chris Algar) because I was fed up with trying to play in sessions and for Sword/Morris (with HTSD) and having to play squeaky G and then stop playing when they (the melodeons and fiddles) went into D. Yes, I know that on a 30 button Anglo you can dodge about all over the place and play in D, but that's not what Anglos are all about (unless you're JK or JW or JS etc.) (or Irish) So, imagine my surprise, when I came to France, and found that (almost) all melodeons are in C/G!!

Le bonheur!!! (bliss!) so , this Friday evening at a 'scène-ouverte' ('open-stage' anybody remember the Hefts 'n' Blades in Sheffield?) when a bloke started playing bourrées on a vielle-à-roue (hurdy-gurdy) and everyone else said "oy, what key's he in?", I said "Doh!", got out the other box, and joined in!

Edited December 10, 2006 by Dave Higham

[Stephen Chambers]

... imagine my surprise, when I came to France, and found that (almost) all melodeons are in C/G!!

Le bonheur!!!

Dave,

 

Actually they're in G/C, which may sound a bit pedantic, but in fact it means that the G row is an octave lower than the squeaky one of a D/G melodeon. I've always thought the G/C was much nicer, and it used to be traditional in England!