Session Snobbery!

[michael sam wild]

Fair do's David. I would call your first example one of an agreed session of good players where I would never expect less able players to intrude too much . I would happily listen. I'd expect a group of Irish professionals to do the same over here if it were an 'English' session by accomplished musicians..

 

I used to go quite a lot to sessions in Ennis in Cruises where Tommy Peoples and a few friends would lead. I was able to play along to a lot but would only want to put in my two pennorth if deliberately requested by Tommy's gently inclined glance and nod. Then I would briefly explain they were tunes from our own repertoire, they were usually accepted in a friendly fashion but then I was happy to fade back and listen to the excellent music that the landlord had presumably paid for. As the session went on I might lead off with a tune from the Irish tradition but I often found that Mayo tunes weren't too well known or played in Clare.

 

Horses for courses don't you think.

 

David, how did you merge in wth local sessions when you came to Bradfield last year, or did you go looking for an 'Irish' session, I didn't see you at The Royal , so I don't know

 

 

Just as an afterthought I think that, sadly, the recent violence in Northern Ireland will lead to one of the sporadic rejections of ITM by the public in England who feel 'Why should we listen to this when it's tied up with all that'. The 'Plastic Paddy' romantic view has been tempered by hard experience, it has put back negotiations a long way. . It saddens me as a man from a deeply committed Irish family but I can quite understand it. I don't think this year's St Patrick's Day will be so jolly in Sheffield. You can't just spray some green around for one day a year. The massive turnout from all sectors and display of dismay in Northern Ireland should point the message.

 

Mike

Edited March 11, 2009 by michael sam wild

[LHMark]

Personally, I'd feel very self-conscious at my current level of play joining in with even the most casual normal-tempo session. It would make sense that people who've been playing for years would be pissed off. Me getting in the way of their music. It's just as snobby of the poorly skilled player to feel entitled.

 

Fortunately, there are slow and instructional sessions, often being run by musicians from the regular sessions, giving us novitiates a leg up. I can't say these guys are snobby when they deliberately take an extra evening of their week to teach people for free. It's up to us to demonstrate gratitude for their time through practice, improvement, and the occasional pint of Guinness.

Edited March 11, 2009 by LHMark

[Chris Timson]

Finally one of the other musicians kindly asked if they'd like to play a tune of their own. One of them started The Sally Gardens- painfully slowly. Within seconds the other musicians ramped up the tempo. They didn't do this to piss off the people who started the tune. They just were doing what they did - which is to play fast - and it wasn't insanely fast, either. It was their session, after all. Were they wrong, or rude?

Grossly. I'm sorry, but to me that is near the peak of session rudeness. To my mind the person who starts a tune (and in this case they were invited to start the tune) sets the speed and that's an end of it. Whether you reckon it's too slow or too fast it is ill-manered to take it over in that way. Selah.

 

Chris

[Ptarmigan]

Finally one of the other musicians kindly asked if they'd like to play a tune of their own. One of them started The Sally Gardens- painfully slowly. Within seconds the other musicians ramped up the tempo. They didn't do this to piss off the people who started the tune. They just were doing what they did - which is to play fast - and it wasn't insanely fast, either. It was their session, after all. Were they wrong, or rude? Or were the slow players the potential hijackers here?

 

David, I reckon it's pretty hard to say, one way or the other for sure, unless you were actually there. However, if one of our lads asked a visitor to start a tune, you can be sure we'd have the manners to keep to the original speed set by the stranger.

Sometimes slow & funky can be fun!

 

It'd be just as rude if the visitor was a speed merchant at a moderately paced session & once he started racing into a very fast reel, they all joined in but at half the speed, drowning him out & forcing him to either slow down or stop.

 

It's all common sense & manners really, I think.

 

What does it take out of a night to play a couple of slow tunes?

 

The fact that these guys were actually asked, may well have meant that the home team were ready for a wee break or a change anyway.

 

Cheers

Dick

[yankeeclipper]

Some "ITM" and "Trad" sessions seem to concentrate on Irish dance music played at undanceable tempos. For a mob which deliberately speeds up an invited visitor's tune, as described above, I suggest a more descriptive term:

 

Irish

Dance

In

Our

Tempo

Seisiún

Edited March 11, 2009 by yankeeclipper

[Chris Timson]

Some "ITM" and "Trad" sessions seem to concentrate on Irish dance music played at undanceable tempos.

And this touches on my belief (expressed before on this forum) as to why so many Irish music sessions are so fast is because they have lost touch with dance, and this is dance music, after all. I should make it clear that my comment does not apply to Ireland. I've been to sessions in Ireland that were played at sensible, dance speeds, were not exclusively Irish and were very open and welcoming ... and had dancers dancing set dances in the bar next door. I've never seen such a session outside of Ireland. For the same reason I believe that this culture of speed does not apply to English music sessions in England or French music sessions in France (and, from experience, Switzerland and Denmark) because dance is still associated with the sessions, either through people actively dancing or through significant numbers of the musicians being involved in traditional dance. I have to say, I think Irish traditional music played outside of Ireland has somewhat lost its way.

 

Chris

Edited March 11, 2009 by Chris Timson

[Alan Day]

I cannot understand the concern about danceable speeds at sessions or indeed for music to be listened to that is too fast for dancing.If you are playing for dancing then the speed should be strict tempo,at all other times I just cannot see why it is frowned on to play a tune at a tempo you like.It is not bad manners it is just a tune,if others prefer it faster or slower,they can play it at that speed at the next session. The same goes for a medley of tunes at different speeds, I think it sounds exciting to change into a different gear sometimes ,some may not.

In our sessions we normally wait at the end of a tune to see if someone has a tune they wish to play and if there is total silence then one of us jumps in to keep the session going.This means that the music is non stop.If two musicians jump in at the same time we normally wait for the musician who did not play to start the next tune. If I get asked to run a session I normally try and line up the next musician to follow on,again to keep the music going.I have heard a few American sessions on cassette and there seems to be a lot more discussion going on between tunes."That was a nice tune,what was it called? Where did you get it from?. In the UK these questions are asked whilst the next tune is in progress.

Al

[hjcjones]

Just suppose, Mike, that you walked into a session in Ireland. Just a local pub. But Michael O'Raghallaigh, Kevin Crawford and James Cullinan happened to be playing there with a couple of their pals. This happens here. Would they be expected to stop to include you in their session?

If I just walked into a pub and found music going on, I wouldn't assume it was a public session or that I had a right to join in. However if a session is advertised as such, then it should be expected that musicians will turn up and join in. Just because the regulars set a high standard is not in itself grounds for exclusion.

 

The answer to your question therefore depends on the circumstances. If these gentlemen had been booked by the landlord to provide some music, then it is not a session but an informal concert and the answer to your question is "no". If they have just turned up and started playing then my answer would be "yes" - if they want a private session then hold it in in a private house, not a public one, and so they shouldn't object if someone asks to join in (although that person had better be able to hold their own in the company). If the event is advertised as a session, undoubtedly the answer is "yes".

 

This doesn't just happen in Ireland. I've played in sessions along with many of the best-known performers of English music - indeed, that is one of the delights of sessions, that you get to play music with a range of people, from famous professionals to struggling novices.

[bill_mchale]

Some "ITM" and "Trad" sessions seem to concentrate on Irish dance music played at undanceable tempos.

And this touches on my belief (expressed before on this forum) as to why so many Irish music sessions are so fast is because they have lost touch with dance, and this is dance music, after all. I should make it clear that my comment does not apply to Ireland. I've been to sessions in Ireland that were played at sensible, dance speeds, were not exclusively Irish and were very open and welcoming ... and had dancers dancing set dances in the bar next door. I've never seen such a session outside of Ireland. For the same reason I believe that this culture of speed does not apply to English music sessions in England or French music sessions in France (and, from experience, Switzerland and Denmark) because dance is still associated with the sessions, either through people actively dancing or through significant numbers of the musicians being involved in traditional dance. I have to say, I think Irish traditional music played outside of Ireland has somewhat lost its way.

 

Chris

 

Chris with respect, I think you must not have been to the right sessions in other countries. While it is rare for there to be dancing at the sessions I attend (We play on what is used for the dance floor on the weekends), it is not unheard of. Further, I can attest that I have played at Ceilis where the music was every bit as fast as any session I have ever played in. Indeed, in the Baltimore/DC area, some of the fastest players at Sessions (The sessions I go to to listen, not play) are also the ones who consistently get hired to play at the various Ceilis that are held every month.

 

Different areas of Ireland also tend to have different tempos... in some areas the music is played and danced faster than in other areas. I am sure there are sessions in Ireland, attended by some of the best players around, that can be every bit as fast as anything you will find outside of Ireland.

 

While do Irish Musicians play so fast? Because it is fun to play that fast. It has always been played fast (you can find old recordings where it is played fast) and it always will be played fast.

 

--

Bill

[Ptarmigan]

(you can find old recordings where it is played fast) and it always will be played fast.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I know what your saying, but you have to be careful because I also understand that some of those old 78s were actually speeded up deliberately, after they were recorded, to make them more exciting to listen to, for purely commercial reasons!

 

Cheers

Dick

[bill_mchale]

(you can find old recordings where it is played fast) and it always will be played fast.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I know what your saying, but you have to be careful because I also understand that some of those old 78s were actually speeded up deliberately, after they were recorded, to make them more exciting to listen to, for purely commercial reasons!

 

Cheers

Dick

 

Without changing the pitch of the music?

 

--

Bill

[Azalin]

Finally one of the other musicians kindly asked if they'd like to play a tune of their own. One of them started The Sally Gardens- painfully slowly. Within seconds the other musicians ramped up the tempo. They didn't do this to piss off the people who started the tune. They just were doing what they did - which is to play fast - and it wasn't insanely fast, either. It was their session, after all. Were they wrong, or rude?

Grossly. I'm sorry, but to me that is near the peak of session rudeness. To my mind the person who starts a tune (and in this case they were invited to start the tune) sets the speed and that's an end of it. Whether you reckon it's too slow or too fast it is ill-manered to take it over in that way. Selah.

 

Chris

 

I must admit I was middle ground on that one... but you're right, good "gentlemen" would have kept the slow speed, these guys were definitely rude. I remember many years ago in Miltown Malbay when I was still a beginner on whistle I sat with a few advanced players and they asked me to play a tune and they did follow me, even though my version of a tune was a bit weird. Anyhow, it's still always a risk you're taking, when sitting with unknown people of much higher skills than you.

[Azalin]

Further, I can attest that I have played at Ceilis where the music was every bit as fast as any session I have ever played in.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure if those commenting above have ever been at ceilis, but ceili music is *very* fast, by my own standard anyway. The dancers would usually complain the music is too slow, not the other way around. Heck, to be playing a reel too fast for the dancers you'd have to play crazy fast methink. I mean, is 120bpm considered slow or fast? I consider it quite fast.

[Larry Stout]

I mean, is 120bpm considered slow or fast? I consider it quite fast.

 

That's about midwestern contra speed, though sometimes they get up to 132, which I consider too fast for dancing. I'd prefer about 117 for dancing. Rapper sword uses jigs at speeds varying from very slow (80 maybe, while learning the dance) to very fast (I was once asked to play at 180bpm). I've never been to an Irish ceili, so I don't know what kind of stepping they are doing. A Kerry set goes at a pretty fast clip (at least the ones I've danced and the ones I've played for).

 

I'd guess that the session speed I find a bit too fast is about 125 to 130 for reels, maybe 130-150 for jigs. MY home session plays at a more reasonable pace than that most of the time, We also play hornpipes, slip jigs, polkas, airs, waltzes, planxties, as well as the usual jigs and reels: a variety of kinds of tunes at a variety of speeds. Different players also add a different lilt-- one fiddler is very hornpipey in the reels, another more like bluegrass. Variety is the spice of the session. Wall to wall anything gets boring.

[Larry Stout]

duplicate deleted

Edited March 12, 2009 by Larry Stout

[Guest Peter Laban]

I don't know what it is about the concern for 'undanceable speeds' that is usually brought up by those outside the Irish tradition (a similar argument is raging on Mudcat at the moment with pretty much the same arguments).

 

I can tell you this, from a position of having played for sets for hundreds of nights, the highest speeds I have ever played were invariably demanded by the dancers. When playing at our regular session speed dancers would invariably complain the music was too slow to the extend it was undanceable for them. I remember Jackie Daly coming back from a weekend in Knocknagree, complaining dancers wanted such speeds there he had to play reels instead of polkas for some figures of the sets they danced there.

 

Reels in other words, are demanded fast by dancers.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Peter Laban

[Chris Timson]

I cannot understand the concern about danceable speeds at sessions or indeed for music to be listened to that is too fast for dancing.If you are playing for dancing then the speed should be strict tempo,at all other times I just cannot see why it is frowned on to play a tune at a tempo you like.It is not bad manners it is just a tune,if others prefer it faster or slower,they can play it at that speed at the next session. The same goes for a medley of tunes at different speeds, I think it sounds exciting to change into a different gear sometimes ,some may not.

This is probably a discussion for a different thread, if someone wants to start it. I've had this debate with Danny Chapman, who holds pretty well the exact opposite view to me. He holds (if I have it right) that once a tune is let loose on the world then a person playing it has absolute right to play it as they wish, in order to express whatever artistic vision they have for the tune. People may choose to criticise the performance on artistic grounds but not otherwise.

 

My position is more pragmatic in that I believe these tunes are functional, and if in your performance you push them too far from their function, which is that of dance music, then you do not serve the tunes well. In fact I believe they lose a lot. What they mostly lose by being played fast (I would say too fast) is melody, rhythm, subtlety and grace, whatever they may gain in "excitement".

 

I suspect these points of view may be reconcileable, but that the holders of these views rarely are

 

Chris

Edited March 12, 2009 by Chris Timson

[Alan Day]

I don't know what it is about the concern for 'undanceable speeds' that is usually brought up by those outside the Irish tradition (a similar argument is raging on Mudcat at the moment with pretty much the same arguments).

 

I can tell you this, from a position of having played for sets for hundreds of nights, the highest speeds I have ever played were invariably demanded by the dancers. When playing at our regular session speed dancers would invariably complain the music was too slow to the extend it was undanceable for them. I remember Jackie Daly coming back from a weekend in Knocknagree, complaining dancers wanted such speeds there he had to play reels instead of polkas for some figures of the sets they danced there.

Interesting Peter,we had exactly the same thing happen to us at Cecil Sharp House.we played a Hop Step (step hop for those who prefer that dance) at strict tempo,you would think if anywhere, that would be the place to do it.The dancers kept trying to wind up the tune and complained it was too slow.

I understand your point of view Chris,many hold it. I prefer musicians to play a tune how they wish to play it.It can also be the likes and dislikes of a conductor some will love a certain interpretation ,some will not.All a matter of taste and although great for discussion,there will never be agreement.

Al