Clive Thorne Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Following on from the thread about the Jeffries G/D 38 Key a few weeks ago, I see tthat there is now a 30 Key G/C of unsure parentage, with a starting price of £3000 and reserve not met!! Makes that Jeffries look cheap! Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Read Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 That's nothing! Look at the Wheatstone treble for US$4999. One thing about Ebay; the market decides. There is one guy with an old rosewood ended Lachenal that needs extensive work. He has put it on four times with a reserve of US$600. His best bid so far was $400. A lot of people selling are antique dealers who don't know anything about concertinas and think they all can get the prices that the good ones demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Look at the Wheatstone treble for US$4999. Yeah. It's a model 21, the "lowest" metal-ended model of the time. Which means it's probably still pretty nice, but not thatnice. Not at a "starting" price above what I would expect the Button Box to charge retail for one like that. But what about this and this? Both advertised as A LOVELY EXAMPLE OF A MUCH SORT AFTER LACHENAL&CO CONCERTINA WITH 21.... I'm inclined to suspect that at least the second one is a fraud. How do I report my suspicions to eBay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldpaulson Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Start by pointing out that neither poster has a good command of the English language. Seriously, that they both incorrectly write "sort after" rather than "sought after" and use similar style descriptions in their post is a tad fishy in my book. Is there such a thing as a vintage concertina that looks too new? State your concerns succinctly in a short letter. The website should have contact information for that sort of thing. ldp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Read Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Send an e-mail to Spam@ebay.com. That should get to the right people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 But what about this and this? Both advertised asA LOVELY EXAMPLE OF A MUCH SORT AFTER LACHENAL&CO CONCERTINA WITH 21.... I'm inclined to suspect that at least the second one is a fraud. How do I report my suspicions to eBay? Maybe the second seller just doesn't know how to describe what he has, & he has copied the Australian description ? (He seems to be more a seller of sports memorabilia.) Mind you, he certainly knows how to charge for it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Murray Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Following on from the thread about the Jeffries G/D 38 Key a few weeks ago, I see tthat there is now a 30 Key G/C of unsure parentage, with a starting price of £3000 and reserve not met!! Makes that Jeffries look cheap! Clive. Yes, following on from that thread I'd say it must be a "very special" concertina and might change hands for a large sum. I was hoping there were things like that out there from that period that might be as good as a Jeffries but less costly. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Following on from the thread about the Jeffries G/D 38 Key a few weeks ago, I see tthat there is now a 30 Key G/C of unsure parentage, with a starting price of £3000 and reserve not met!! Makes that Jeffries look cheap! It is the same vendor as the Jeffries, is it not..? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Groff Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 (edited) Erik, Opinions differ but for many purposes, the anglo concertinas with John Crabb's stamp, and later instruments made by the Crabb family, including at least some Ball Beavons, in the late 19th and early 20th century may be just as good or better than many contemporaneous instruments with the Jeffries name, and often sell for less. I know this view is heretical to some! A lot depends on the individual concertina -- its original "build quality" and its subsequent history of use, storage, and restoration. I am already on record with the even more radical view that many Irish music beginners would be better off paying their dues by developing the skills necessary to operate a good Lachenal for a few years. If you REALLY learn to operate it well, this can be a lifetime instrument as Mrs. Crotty proved. Why many who do not play as well are proud to own fancier instruments is a mystery to me! Certain exceptional models of Jones fit into the category of the first paragraph, although his concertinas vary widely in playability even when they have the same "features" (e.g. a "30 key Jones" might be a very playable instrument or one that is awkward to move quickly). The best ones have an amazing tone and appearance, and play just a little slower than the fastest anglos, when set up properly. I see some of his instruments (like many Lachenal anglos) as excellent candidates for "hotrodding" -- rebuilding to better than original specifications. Sometimes this gives you a particular combination of warm, clear tone and playability that is not otherwise found (either in new instruments or in the old ones originally made as professional quality). But again I may have an unorthodox view, because my favorite electric guitar is a 50s Kay "Jimmy Reed" style where the luthiery work to make it playable cost more than the guitar did (this is the only way to get that particular tone in a blues guitar that plays well). I sure wish I could try mairtin's anglo. I have a little semi-miniature 28 key, with a similar fine and engraved fretwork, that is really exceptional. Mine has "C. Jeffries, Maker" engraved on it by the same tool that did the fretwork engraving, and is dead original in reedwork. I don't know about 1850; I would have guessed 1860s or later, but in my opinion these "look" very early, whoever made them. But so much of the value of these depends (in my view) on what has happened to the instrument since then -- and especially very recently. Some "restorers" work hours to do things to a concertina that permanently impair its value, from my perspective, and many players do NOT improve their concertinas by the way they play and store them. Paul P. S. This was not part of your question, but it always needs to be said that the fine concertinas being made today play and sound brilliantly and may be the best bargains of all. Edited March 20, 2004 by Paul Groff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I am already on record with the even more radical view that many Irish music beginners would be better off paying their dues by developing the skills necessary to operate a good Lachenal for a few years. If you REALLY learn to operate it well, this can be a lifetime instrument as Mrs. Crotty proved. Why many who do not play as well are proud to own fancier instruments is a mystery to me! I couldn't agree more Paul, indeed I have an interesting story (that I was told by the late Bernard O'Sullivan) on that score : Mrs. Crotty, like all the other Clare players of old, originally played on a German concertina. She was offered both a four-row Jeffries and a three-row Lachenal, and bought the Lachenal in preference, the Jeffries didn't suit her at all. Bernard knew this, because he then bought the Jeffries ! By the way, I have mentioned elsewhere that I have aspirations to take up the anglo when I move to Kilrush, and bear in mind that some of the best anglos in Creation have passed through my hands in the past 35 years. What have I chosen for myself : a good 30-key Lachenal ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Thorne Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 (edited) Following on from the thread about the Jeffries G/D 38 Key a few weeks ago, I see tthat there is now a 30 Key G/C of unsure parentage, with a starting price of £3000 and reserve not met!! Makes that Jeffries look cheap! Clive. Yes, following on from that thread I'd say it must be a "very special" concertina and might change hands for a large sum. I was hoping there were things like that out there from that period that might be as good as a Jeffries but less costly. E Quite possibly it is 'very special', Erik - but there is nothing in the description suggest or confirm that, other than the price. Even if it was a known Crabb or Jones, or even if it was a Jeffries, I can't think that anyone would pay £3000 for it untested, and only 30 buttons. (I know some people would pay more for a 30 key than a 38 key, but that's another subject). I did not mean to imply that I consider Jeffries are automatically better than any other make. As Paul says other makers built (and build) instruments of at least as good a quality. My own instrument is stamped C. Jeffries, but apparently was built by Crabbs (so Mr Dipper says). Its really immaterial to me, I love it irrespective of who made it. It may be an exceptional instrument, but it may also be the seller 'trying it on', or simply confusing insurance value and retail value. Clive Edited March 20, 2004 by Clive Thorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Thorne Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 Paul, I don't argue with anything you say in your posting, but I am curious as to what aspsect or method/style of playing de-values an instrument, given that is a instruments 'raison d'etre'. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Groff Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Clive Point well made! I remember loaning my (only) wooden flute to an older Irish friend for the summer, years ago, when I went away to do a summer of field research. When I came back, he had bent a key out of his way (that broke off when bent back), and the instrument needed a few other repairs. Still I thought at the time, and still think, that the month or two the flute spent being played by this wonderful musician was probably the high point of its life, even if it sustained some damage. That is a "value" too, as you imply! I have seen concertina players wear through bellows, tear apart bellows (especially if old, original ones that can be fragile), cause rust on the reeds by playing in the rain (or leaving it in a closed case with a humidifier for too long), strip screws, cause soundboard warps or cracks, break fretwork, etc. Even those who flip and wiggle their wrists a lot can cause a nice new bellows to become floppier than I prefer. Then there are the repair jobs with globs of epoxy, the springs replaced with those from clothespins, the DIY tuning jobs... Even with the very best of care, normal use puts wear on the valves, action, pads, and can affect the tuning of the reeds over time. These factors, in my view, should influence the price paid for a concertina sold by a private party. But again, as you imply, the value of a concertina is first and foremost that it can be used to play music! I would never say they should not be played. And (this is another subject), some aspects of the tone and playability CAN improve when they are played a lot. I only said that "many players do not improve them." Thank you for reminding us of the most important aspect of concertina value! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 ...playing ... is a instruments 'raison d'etre'. Thank you for reminding us of the most important aspect of concertina value! While I'm sure that most or even all of us here agree with that view, I'll remind you/us that there can always be found someone with a different viewpoint. E.g., if there were a Concertina-Collectors.net forum, or a Musical-Instrument-Investors mailing list, I expect there might be some very different criteria. Just read the eBay descriptions to get some idea. I have personally experienced would-be sellers who were surprised, even apalled or insulted that I should be interested in whether an instrument could be played! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Just read the eBay descriptions to get some idea. I have personally experienced would-be sellers who were surprised, even apalled or insulted that I should be interested in whether an instrument could be played! Not forgetting some of the sellers I have encountered, who asserted that their instruments were "in playable condition", when "makes assorted (out of tune) noises without you touching a button, riddled with woodworm and growing white mould" might be nearer the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Murray Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Thanks Paul, for confirming what I suspected about Crabb, Ball Beavon etc. From the pictures they look to be the same sort of quality. I have a Jeffries I'm pleased with but I'd like to try some different things as time goes on. I hope our worldwide discussion doesn't raise the price of everything too quickly. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Not forgetting some of the sellers I have encountered, who asserted that their instruments were "in playable condition", when "makes assorted (out of tune) noises without you touching a button, riddled with woodworm and growing white mould" might be nearer the mark. Maybe they thought you shouldn't play on it, but with it... like a football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Groff Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Erik, Well, I wouldn't want what I wrote to be taken to mean that all concertinas by these makers were or are about the same quality. There was much variation in initial quality within each maker's production (the set of concertinas labeled with each of these names), and after many decades the current range of quality within each set is greater. And I would never suggest that I (or, I suspect anyone) can really determine the current quality of any concertina from photographs. An experienced eye can help with educated guesses about how well an instrument was made when new, but so much about its current condition can only be known when it is in hand. Possibly more public discussion of this uncertainty factor will keep buyers more cautious, and rein sellers in from their assumptions that anything with a famous name is gold. This might even lower prices or at least restrain the price inflation in auctioned and privately sold instruments. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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