"it's Loud Enough For Irish Music"

[Azalin]

In the past few months I heard a lot about some concertinas being "loud enough for irish music". I'm having a hard time understanding this, but maybe there's something I'm not getting?

 

If you're like me, and prefer to sit with a few friends at home and play a few tunes, why would being loud be an advantage? When people say "loud enough", does that mean in crowded sessions in pubs? Also, professional players will often be miked up and their instrument's volume won't matter.

 

It seems to me there's a culture of 'war' in sessions where your instrument needs to 'holds it's own' against other instruments and so on. But I'm asking, what is the fun of it, if you need to a very loud instrument to be heard or hear yourself, can the music be possibly enjoyable at this point?

 

I played my Dipper at a house session for the first time on friday night and I found out how much the Dipper is a 'war machine', with our guest wondering in a subtle manner if the instrument could be played quieter... It's great to have the possibility to play loud, but I'm currently trying to control it to reduce the volume, a bit like taming a wild lion :-)

 

Anyway, I was wondering if all the fuss about volume was about sessions and keeping those nasty pipes and accordeons at bay??

[ben]

Hello Azalin,

 

Could you put a clip of your music on the new Dipper on YouTube for us? I would love to hear a tune on your new instrument.

[Azalin]

Hello Azalin,

 

Could you put a clip of your music on the new Dipper on YouTube for us? I would love to hear a tune on your new instrument.

 

Well, I usually don't like to post video clips, especially for the concertina, but yeah I could do that and keep it up for a couple of days before putting it down. I did it for my vintage so shouldnt be too hard. I'll let you know during the week :-)

[Wally Carroll]

One of the challenges with the concertina is that the player's ears are not in an ideal position to hear the instrument. Unlike a fiddle, flute, whistle, or accordion, the instrument is held quite far, relatively speaking, from the player's ears and so the sound, which is also quite directional, effectively escapes right out from under the player. When playing alone, this of course is not a problem, but when playing in a session a quiet instrument often won't be heard by the player as other instruments having a more direct line to the player's ears will drown it out. The flip side of course is that others in the session often will be able to hear you quite well and so playing louder may not win you too many friends. A good strategy is to try to sit in the corner of the room so that you get more reflections off of the walls which can greatly improve your hearing. Also, try to avoid sitting too close to a fiddle as the two instruments are quite similar in timbre and the position of the fiddle may actually be closer to your ears than your own instrument.

[frogspawn]

The flip side of course is that others in the session often will be able to hear you quite well and so playing louder may not win you too many friends.

 

As a beginner I find this problem is acute. I find it difficult to hear myself, but I'm sure those around me know when I hit a wrong note! The answer is to find an empty corner but that's not always easy.

[Rod]

The flip side of course is that others in the session often will be able to hear you quite well and so playing louder may not win you too many friends.

 

As a beginner I find this problem is acute. I find it difficult to hear myself, but I'm sure those around me know when I hit a wrong note! The answer is to find an empty corner but that's not always easy.

 

These comments are suggesting that the Concertina is best treated as a solo instrument, or with modest accompaniment from another appropriate backing instrument, and not at it's best as part of a larger 'competitive' group.

[frogspawn]

The flip side of course is that others in the session often will be able to hear you quite well and so playing louder may not win you too many friends.

 

As a beginner I find this problem is acute. I find it difficult to hear myself, but I'm sure those around me know when I hit a wrong note! The answer is to find an empty corner but that's not always easy.

 

These comments are suggesting that the Concertina is best treated as a solo instrument, or with modest accompaniment from another appropriate backing instrument, and not at it's best as part of a larger 'competitive' group.

 

Concertinas vary in volume but they're not generally as loud as melodeons or piano accordions which compete for a similar part of the sound spectrum. I generally find myself in the sound shadow of a very loud accordion (belonging to a good friend of mine), but my best playing experiences have been on the very rare occasions when the only other button box was another concertina.

[Ptarmigan]

I think the biggest problem is not with the volume each instrument is capable of producing, but rather that so many musicians, in pub sessions in particular, don't fully understand the real art of session or any other form of ensemble playing, namely to play with the other musicians & so blend in with the other instruments.

 

Sadly, in my experience, too many session players are just far too interested in listening only to what they are playing & they don't really listen to the other instruments around them.

Those guys should really do us all a big favour & just stay at home, where they could hear themselves perfectly, if they just sat in their own kitchens ... playing with themselves!

 

When more musicians really do listen & really do try to blend in, a session is a truly wonderful place to be.

 

However, with Irish sessions, especially when full of young players, they can seem more like a Roman Amphitheatre!

 

For me though, a great place to sit, when I'm playing Concertina, is right beside the Fiddle player, as those instruments can blend so well.

 

As for the so called GHETTO BLASTERS at sessions ..... namely the Pipes, Piano Accordions, Melodeons, Banjos, Guitars & Bodhrans.

They are NOT BAD instruments, there are no bad instruments .... just BAD PLAYERS!

 

Speaking of Pipes, we had two Pipers in with us last Saturday night. One playing Scottish Smallpipes in A, which kept getting flatter & the other playing a set of Northumbrian Pipes in F, which kept getting sharper!

So even although I had taken two fiddles along, tuning was quite hard work for most of the night!

Still, when it works, it is worth all the effort.

 

Of course, on a night like that, my wee Concertina just has to stay in his case!

 

Cheers,

Dick

[Ishtar]

One of the challenges with the concertina is that the player's ears are not in an ideal position to hear the instrument.

 

That is so true. I'm surprised at how different my concertina sounds on my little video clip. Not the same instrument at all!

 

The hall where we practice our sea shanties has good acoustics, and that was another surprise, hearing my concertina as others hear it.

[Ptarmigan]

One of the challenges with the concertina is that the player's ears are not in an ideal position to hear the instrument.

 

That is so true. I'm surprised at how different my concertina sounds on my little video clip. Not the same instrument at all!

 

The hall where we practice our sea shanties has good acoustics, and that was another surprise, hearing my concertina as others hear it.

 

VIDEO CLIP????????

 

OK so where's the link? .................. please!

[Ishtar]

OK so where's the link? .................. please!

 

I've cunningly hidden it in the "Videos" section, where nobody will think to look for a video.

 

I'm the one who looks like an escapee from somewhere people only talk about in hushed whispers.

[Azalin]

Sadly, in my experience, too many session players are just far too interested in listening only to what they are playing & they don't really listen to the other instruments around them.

Those guys should really do us all a big favour & just stay at home, where they could hear themselves perfectly, if they just sat in their own kitchens ... playing with themselves!

 

Yeah, this is pretty much my thoughts about it. I heard the same term ("loud enough for sessions") about whistles for years although I think a loud whistle is even worse. I find it a bit disapointing that the volume of an instrument can be such a popular attribute.

[spindizzy]

Sadly, in my experience, too many session players are just far too interested in listening only to what they are playing & they don't really listen to the other instruments around them.

Those guys should really do us all a big favour & just stay at home, where they could hear themselves perfectly, if they just sat in their own kitchens ... playing with themselves!

 

Yeah, this is pretty much my thoughts about it. I heard the same term ("loud enough for sessions") about whistles for years although I think a loud whistle is even worse. I find it a bit disapointing that the volume of an instrument can be such a popular attribute.

 

 

It also applies to flutes, where the ideal ITM flute seems to be the loudest!

There are some advantages to popularity ...when I bought an unkeyed wooden flute, I got a bit off the list price, because the maker said everyone wanted loud hard toned blackwood flutes and this one (in yew) was too mellow. (Suited me, as a beginner I didn't really want to stand out!)

[Mark Evans]

I've encountered a whistle player or two who could really zing my bad ear. It hurts and makes everything sound like I'm listening through old speakers with a broken cone.

 

Yes, a session can get to be too much with everyone going balls out. That's when I might take my pint to a table, talk a bit and wait for the raucous cacophony to damp down. Sometimes I'm the in the midst of it, honking along like a total ass I'm sure. Whatchgonnado?

Edited October 27, 2008 by Mark Evans

[yankeeclipper]

I think the biggest problem is not with the volume each instrument is capable of producing, but rather that so many musicians, in pub sessions in particular, don't fully understand the real art of session or any other form of ensemble playing, namely to play with the other musicians & so blend in with the other instruments.

 

I agree. And unfortunately, the move to amplified music has made this problem even worse. Players rely on a goon (usually already hearing impaired) at a sound board to do the balancing that they should be doing themselves.

[Rod]

[quote name='Mark

[Rod]

I've encountered a whistle player or two who could really zing my bad ear. It hurts and makes everything sound like I'm listening through old speakers with a broken cone.

 

Yes, a session can get to be too much with everyone going balls out. That's when I might take my pint to a table, talk a bit and wait for the raucous cacophony to damp down. Sometimes I'm the in the midst of it, honking along like a total ass I'm sure. Whatchgonnado?

 

Obsession with both speed and volume does Concertina music no favours at all and destroys much of the pleasure... to my ear. Speed can easily outstrip talent and excess volume is simply distasteful.

[David Levine]

I dunno. I like to make noise. I think that's why I am a musician. Music is just noise structured in a particular way.

 

That said, I don't have the loudest flute. Not that it would matter. I play in a group with a very loud Jeffries (not mine),

very loud fiddle, and very loud pipes. And the players are not shy. I don't have to be loudest, but I do want to be able to hear myself.

For that I don't need the loudest flute and if the other players want to hear me they have to back off.

It seems to me that more accomplished players don't want or need the instrument with the most volume.

 

Concertina is like the pipes. It is a very forceful, up front instrument. It's hard to play it quietly.

You can't duck behind another instrument, the way you can with fiddle or flute.

And it's been said, it's hard to hear in a large session, which means you tend to play it forcefully.

I like my concertina in small sessions where I feel very comfortable.

Otherwise I'm just adding to the clatter.

But it's great in a small session.

And best of all in my kitchen, when it's raining outside.