Silly Question

[Frankie]

Hi,

I've been learning on a Rochelle for a few weeks and have now got to F major key.

Can someone tell me how to play Bf followed by A, or the other way round? Do you use your index finger for both notes, one after the other? Or somehow try to get your middle finger onto one of those L1 buttons? Or use the A/G button on the G row?

Is there anywhere I can get advice on which fingers to use generally, or does everyone just find their own way?

Thanks,

Frankie

[CaryK]

Hi,

I've been learning on a Rochelle for a few weeks and have now got to F major key.

Can someone tell me how to play Bf followed by A, or the other way round? Do you use your index finger for both notes, one after the other? Or somehow try to get your middle finger onto one of those L1 buttons? Or use the A/G button on the G row?

Is there anywhere I can get advice on which fingers to use generally, or does everyone just find their own way?

Thanks,

Frankie

 

In F Maj I play A (following Bb pull on the outer row, left hand) by pulling A in the left hand G-row (just below Bb) on a C/G concertina. I use my left index finger for both Bb and A. I find it works very smoothly for me, though I don't know if this is standard practice or not.

Edited October 22, 2008 by CaryK

[Lawrence Reeves]

Frankie, although I don't often find myself playing in F major, here is my suggestion. If the tune calls for ascending or descending as a scale I would use the a on the g row as you suggested. I also suggest that in following the scale use a pull c natural on the g row. You then have a choice of d/e in either row( I prefer a pull e in the g row) and then pull f on the C row. At that point if still going up I would use the g/a in the g row. This should allow you to easily do ornaments( cuts) on the higher notes. In the tunes you are learning in either f or g minor, be aware of a pull g ( button next to the Bb on the accidental ( 3rd row). It can make for a smoother bellows choice. G minor tunes such as Reavey's "Red Tom of the Hill ( as played by The Kane Sisters) and Edel Fox's playing of Farewell to Miltown Malbay can make use of the alternate G finger.

[Frankie]

Many thanks for the advice - it's really useful.

Frankie

 

 

 

 

Frankie, although I don't often find myself playing in F major, here is my suggestion. If the tune calls for ascending or descending as a scale I would use the a on the g row as you suggested. I also suggest that in following the scale use a pull c natural on the g row. You then have a choice of d/e in either row( I prefer a pull e in the g row) and then pull f on the C row. At that point if still going up I would use the g/a in the g row. This should allow you to easily do ornaments( cuts) on the higher notes. In the tunes you are learning in either f or g minor, be aware of a pull g ( button next to the Bb on the accidental ( 3rd row). It can make for a smoother bellows choice. G minor tunes such as Reavey's "Red Tom of the Hill ( as played by The Kane Sisters) and Edel Fox's playing of Farewell to Miltown Malbay can make use of the alternate G finger.

[David Levine]

Frankie,

I agree with Lawrence. I usually agree with Lawrence but never tell him because it gives him a swelled head.

I use the push A on the accidental row before the push Bb going up the scale.

Then a C as Lawrence suggests - (Though Noel Hill recommends using the D/E with the left index finger)

It makes a tune like Fahey's jig very accessible and avoids chopping.

I'll be happy to send you a clip if you'd like.

One thing we nearly all agree on, and which nearly all experienced players would advise,

is that however you do it you should learn to avoid chopping.

Chopping is when you use the same finger to play consecutive buttons.

The tricky thing about playing across the rows is that you can avoid chopping

because you always have a choice of which button sequence to use.

The same note can be sounded with a different combination of fingerings.

This makes it it tricky, too.

So it's best to get into the practice of developing fingerings to avoid the chop.

[CaryK]

Frankie,

I agree with Lawrence. I usually agree with Lawrence but never tell him because it gives him a swelled head.

I use the push A on the accidental row before the push Bb going up the scale.

Then a C as Lawrence suggests - (Though Noel Hill recommends using the D/E with the left index finger)

It makes a tune like Fahey's jig very accessible and avoids chopping.

I'll be happy to send you a clip if you'd like.

One thing we nearly all agree on, and which nearly all experienced players would advise,

is that however you do it you should learn to avoid chopping.

Chopping is when you use the same finger to play consecutive buttons.

The tricky thing about playing across the rows is that you can avoid chopping

because you always have a choice of which button sequence to use.

The same note can be sounded with a different combination of fingerings.

This makes it it tricky, too.

So it's best to get into the practice of developing fingerings to avoid the chop.

 

Hi David,

Thanks for defining chopping, I've never heard that term before, but I am not all that experienced a player either. But I'm a little confused. Whether you play along the rows or across the rows (my usual method), when you are practicing scales (and tunes) don't you automatically play consecutive buttons with the same finger? For example, playing Key of G scale, all the note pairs (if you play along the row) starting with G above middle C use the same finger for consecutive notes, with the exception of E to F# and F# to G.

 

When playing the same scale across the rows, all the note pairs except B-C and C-D use the same finger for consecutive notes.

 

I used Levy's tutor when starting out and learning along the row playing. I was instructed by Noel Hill at his workshops regarding across the row playing. Neither source of instruction made any mention of needing to avoid chopping. Why do other experienced players advise against it? When you practice scales do you always construct your scale to avoid using the same finger on consecutive notes? I've never come across this advice before. Thanks.

[tombilly]

Do people 'construct' scales for different keys - work out which buttons to use, based on key?? I guess it sounds like a good idea in theory but in practice do we not play in phrases - you figure out how to play a partic. phrase comfortably and when that phrase pops up in another tune, you follow without thinking. Is this not why as your store of tunes increases, that things get easier? In other words, learn & practice by playing & learning tunes.

[Lawrence Reeves]

ThomBilly poses a great point in my opinion. If all Irish Trad sounds the same( wife's opinion), then patterns that present themselves are very useful. I teach flute and whistle weekly, and here is a little something I have tried with some students. Teach the following reels one after each other. The Drunken Landlady, The Kerry Reel, and The Pigeon on the Gate. All E minor with similar starts. Another sequence is Lucy Campbell's, and The Bucks of Oranmore. Now it would be a disaster to play these in a session together, but learning the patterns that come in common in the tunes is helpful. Others that come to mind are The Milliner's Daughter, and The Dublin Lads. The second parts of these tunes are same sequences reversed. Cooley's , The House of Hammil, and Fin Dwyer's ( the E minor one) all start with a similar pulse. The Bank of Ireland second part almost same as Spike Island Lasses( standard D version, not the one Tim Collins recorded on the Reed Only CD) second part. Translating to the concertina, this idea of pattern learning is very useful, but the issue of where the tune goes next might dictate a choice of row and button to keep the bellows either smooth or rhythmic. If the push vs pull on a few notes causes a re-fingering to happen, then the mechanical part of repetition is nulled temporarily,but the aural sense of sameness is still present. After a few pints in a late session, the ability to discern which tune has been started is only natural, due to individual ornamentation, sameness of tune, and inability to hear clearly the other players in the room,etc.

[David Levine]

Carey-- the same finger will play two consecutive notes on the same button, if by that you mean a push/pull on a button with paired notes, as the G/A on the C row.

But you'd try to avoid using the same finger for two different consecutive buttons.

You'd not go from G row rt hand F# to the C row B draw with the index finger. You'd use the B press on the G row, left hand, middle finger.

Again, you would not go from the LH G row D draw to the LH CR A draw with index finger. You'd use the A draw on the G row with your ring finger.

Do you see what I mean?

 

Today I've been working out The Boys of Malin, in the key of A (it will be about 100 years before it's up to speed and by then somebody else will be playing my concertina). For the most part I am using the LH D and the LH A on the G row. To avoid chopping it's either that or use the bird-finger RH D press on the C row and the LH A draw on the CR. If I did that (use the bird-finger D in this tune) I'd have a problem shifting to the G# and the high B in the tune.

 

It's tricky stuff all right. For some tunes you just have to work out the fingering in detail. Or the tune will always give you problems and you'll be fighting the instrument. That's why in the early period (the first ten years or so) it's best to have a teacher - and a system - or at least take some classes, as a rough guide to the ensuing complexities of this so-easy instrument.... (did somebody say easy?)

 

If this all gives you a headache then you won't want my little intro to Noel Hill's system. This wouldn't be a substitute for a class with Him but will point you in the right direction. Let me know if you want a copy. No charge.

[David Levine]

Do people 'construct' scales for different keys - work out which buttons to use, based on key?? I guess it sounds like a good idea in theory...

 

It isn't a silly question. It's a basic question. But I don't see any other way to do it. In the G scale you'd use a Cn - and use, preferably, the C draw. In the D scale you'd use the C#, right? You are using different, specific, buttons based on the key.

 

You do , as Lawrence points out, play in phrases and some phrases become clichés. Similar phrases - or clichés - occur in tunes in different keys. But I still have to work out specific fingerings based on the notes in the tune, and corresponding buttons. Sure, you can teach yourself to play concertina. But the people we most admire as players (those at least who I most admire) all had teachers and they freely give those teachers great credit.

[CaryK]

It's tricky stuff all right. For some tunes you just have to work out the fingering in detail. Or the tune will always give you problems and you'll be fighting the instrument. That's why in the early period (the first ten years or so) it's best to have a teacher - and a system - or at least take some classes, as a rough guide to the ensuing complexities of this so-easy instrument.... (did somebody say easy?)

 

If this all gives you a headache then you won't want my little intro to Noel Hill's system. This wouldn't be a substitute for a class with Him but will point you in the right direction. Let me know if you want a copy. No charge.

 

David, thanks for explaining what you meant by "chopping". I understand what you mean now. I did mention in my earlier post that I have been to Noel's classes. I've attended twice in the last four years, first in the beginner group and then two years later, this past summer, in the intermediate group. And what I've learned from him forms the basis of how I play now. He's a fantastic teacher.

However, Noel did not mention the term "chopping" or any other term that meant playing consecutive notes on a different button with the same finger as being a poor technique. So, I need to re-ask my question to you, why is this considered such bad technique? If it were I'd think it would have been brought up by Noel (though maybe it was in the advanced group). Did I miss something that you picked up from Noel?

Edited October 25, 2008 by CaryK

[David Levine]

I hadn't realized you'd taken classes from him. I apologise for missing that.

 

I've talked with Noel about this recently. This: " I use my left index finger for both Bb and A" would not be acceptable to him. Not because it violates the word of God but because playing like this slows things down. I would play the C row press G (index finger), go to the top row for a press A (bird-finger) and then index finger top row for the draw Bb. It's much smoother than using the index finger for both notes - at least at speed. If you're using the index finger here then why wouldn't you use use it in other places in the same way?

 

The whole point to his approach is to play the tunes without chopping. I can't recall hearing him use the term but I believe he recognized it when I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago. He said his approach hasn't changed since I took some lessons from him nearly twenty years ago. I first heard the term used by Martha, a young woman from Miltown who is a great concertina player. In Miltown you can't get a pint unless you either are one, or know a concertina player.

 

I'd like to hear what Peter Laban has to say about this. I believe his son is taking lessons from Noel.

[Azalin]

However, Noel did not mention the term "chopping" or any other term that meant playing consecutive notes on a different button with the same finger as being a poor technique.

 

I'm pretty certain if you ask him directly he'll agree that using the same finger to play two different buttons in a row is poor technique in general, but there might be exceptions.

 

I had a class with Edel Fox last july and about this subject, she said something like "if your finger is doing too much work, it's because you're doing something wrong". Well, this haunted my dreams, and hearing Tim Collins say something similar confirmed the whole thing for me and since then I am making sure that a finger won't play two different buttons in a row, with only a few exceptions, sometimes with the high G# or Bb in G minor tunes, I'll "cheat" but it's very rare.

 

I suggest you do like I did and still do, which means going through all your tunes and remapping your notes/buttons so that a finger will play only one button "in a row". That means using both A/G on the left side C row and G row, using the B/C left G row and C/B right C row (same with D/E, E/D) and making use of both your high C# on the right side if you have both. As David mentionned there's also the push A on the left side accidental row that can help you from time to time.

 

But of course you'd want to ask Noel Hill himself before taking drastic measures based on something you read on a website. Don't trust the internet I tell you!

 

PS: I'm sure I will need to do some partial remapping again in a few years when I get to the next 'level' and start aiming for a very specific phrasing which will require more or less "push/pull" in certain phrases, but at least it should be easier than now, since I'll already be confortable using all alternate fingerings

Edited October 26, 2008 by Azalin

[CaryK]

Had a comment, but I want to re-think it first. Will get back to you.

Cary

Edited October 27, 2008 by CaryK