Suttner Vs Dipper

[Guest Peter Laban]

it isn't an artificial opposition. no one was suggesting a slapdown.

 

It just struck me that setting up Suttner vs Dipper, there should be no surprise the 'versus' is read as trying to create an opposition.

[Chris Timson]

It just struck me that setting up Suttner vs Dipper, there should be no surprise the 'versus' is read as trying to create an opposition.

Ah well, that's the English language for you. I agree that it was perhaps an unfortunate subject line. We should be glad we've got the Dippers and Suttner and Dickinson and Kensington and Wakker and more making traditionally reeded concertinas, plus a whole slew of talented individuals making hybrids. It's a long time since the concertina community was so well served.

 

Chris

[Azalin]

Thanks for the information some people have posted here, it's been informative.

 

As for the title of this thread, heck, I've always liked to 'shock' people you know :-)

 

To be honnest, to own a Dipper *or* a Suttner is a dream of mine. Everytime I try one, somewhere, every second is like being in paradise. My concertina plays very well, and it's action is as good as those, but there's something those concertina reeds... the sound, the vibrations, the vibration of the chords... It's hard to be patient. I want candy!

[PeterT]

..... In any event the young woman put her finger on the only enduring question I've had about the Dipper: its noisy. As in "pad slap" after you get off the note. you can minimize the "pad slap" sound if you play with a light touch and don't snap your fingers off the buttons after pushing them all the way in, and I've worked hard at this. But the Jeffries and Suttner did not seem to have this issue. Does any one else notice this about Dippers or other concertinas?

Hi John,

 

I saw your posting a couple of days ago, but needed time to think back to when my Dipper was new.

 

Colin uses very tight bushings for the buttons, coupled with quite a high spring tension. I checked on my Dipper, and a couple of the lesser used buttons still exhibit this "clack" when the button is released. Over the passage of time, the rest of the instrument has played in nicely and there is no obvious noise to be heard over the music.

 

If the noise worries you, there was a thread, some time in 2007, about how to compress the bushing felt. Other makers might have bushings which feel "just right" when new, but this might result in loose buttons after just a couple of years hard playing. Overall, I'm happy with Colin's approach.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Chris Timson]

Overall, I'm happy with Colin's approach.

Indeed, there's little about a Dipper that hasn't been thought about deeply. You may or may not agree with his approach (for instance I really like the unusually high rails on my baritone, others may not), but it's never like that by happenstance.

 

Hey ho, off to Sidmouth tomorrow. Whoopeee!

 

Chris

[m3838]

It just struck me that setting up Suttner vs Dipper, there should be no surprise the 'versus' is read as trying to create an opposition.

So even though original poster unequivocally stated that he means technical differences, it still strikes you as "trying to create an opposition"?

How come?

Unless we are specifically aware that makers are a touchy bunch, and we are in cue, and we are uneasy, expecting to be kicked off it, if makers suspect we somehow diminish "theirs" against "competition".

If it's not self-imposed censorship, what is it?

I personally didn't notice that makers are particularly touchy. They can slap opponent all right, with straight speech.

There must be differences between the makes, one is louder, one is noisier, one is honkier, one is brighter, heavier vs. lighter, easier bellows vs. more tight etc.

If we can't discuss these specs, what's the point of having this forum?

[Azalin]

There must be differences between the makes, one is louder, one is noisier, one is honkier, one is brighter, heavier vs. lighter, easier bellows vs. more tight etc.

If we can't discuss these specs, what's the point of having this forum?

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it. I've never seen side by side technical comparison between these makers and I still think it's a bit taboo for some reason. If we can't risk creating threads about potentially subjective matters, what's left to talk about then?

[wntrmute]

Nice weather we're having, huh?

 

No, I'm not 'denying the looming global warming disaster,' I'm just saying it's nice out today. Seriously.

 

Okay, nevermind. Guess we can't discuss that, either.

[m3838]

Nice weather we're having, huh?

 

No, I'm not 'denying the looming global warming disaster,' I'm just saying it's nice out today. Seriously.

 

Okay, nevermind. Guess we can't discuss that, either.

 

It's actually pretty clever idea, but not new: to post side-by-side comparisons between makes, with pics and sound files.

May be it's worth to have a separate thread, but not Dipper vs. Suttner, they are rare beasts, but in general,

"Side-by-Side comparison" of all makes and models. Some task it is, isn't it?

As for taboos, there are plenty, and there are none. Like that shattered taboo about Irish music been boring (or not). Lovely discussion that was.

Too bad my Jack files are gone. Darn it! I'd start with that. I had many instruments in my hands over years, and the best, to my surprise, was metal ended Wheatstone English Treble, lent to potential customer of my brass reeded Wheatstone, which he never bought.

[Chris Timson]

No, I'm not 'denying the looming global warming disaster,' I'm just saying it's nice out today. Seriously.

 

Okay, nevermind. Guess we can't discuss that, either.

Probably not - the weather here has been pretty bad recently. Three days ago we spent my birthday drying out the conservatory after the rain comprehensively got in ... <sigh>

 

Chris

[David Levine]

I find it more rewarding to compare different settings of the same tune as played by different people.

 

As has been pointed out before, perceived differences between the top makers' concertinas will probably be subjective.

 

We can talk about it all we want - and concertina players do love to talk about their instruments --

 

but I find that I need to play an instrument for weeks before I really connect with it.

 

I know first-hand that Azalin plays nice music on whatever concertina is in his hands.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I find it more rewarding to compare different settings of the same tune as played by different people.

 

As has been pointed out before, perceived differences between the top makers' concertinas will probably be subjective.

 

We can talk about it all we want - and concertina players do love to talk about their instruments --

 

but I find that I need to play an instrument for weeks before I really connect with it.

 

I know first-hand that Azalin plays nice music on whatever concertina is in his hands.

 

Cocus,

You bring up an aspect that has been missing in this discussion, but which I think is very important: The sounds that come out of a musical instrument are the result if the interaction between the instrument and the player.

There are so many parameters in the construction of a concertina (quite apart from its being in tune and having tight bellows, which we're assuming here) that can alter the sound - but there are just as many human parameters that have an equally strong influence.

 

As you say, there's the setting of the same tune: lush, sparse, fast, slow ...

 

And there's the physique of the player: strong, weak, motorically deft or less so ...

 

But also the personality of the player: brash, extrovert, shy, uncertain ...

 

And, of course, as you say, the player's familiarity with the specimen he or she is playing.

It's a common observation that instruments - not only concertinas - improve in tone when they're played frequently. This will be in part due to subtle changes in the physics of the instruments - but it must be remembered that the owner of the frequently-played instrument plays it frequently, so much of the improvement will be due to increasing familiarity and frequent practice.

 

So comparing recordings of player A on concertina X, player B on concertina Y and player C on concertina Z is not really a comparison of the concertinas. Perhaps you can deduce the suitability of concertina X for the style of player A. But the strongest impression I always get from recordngs is whether or not I like the player's style. If I can't get perfection, I'd prefer a musicaly satisfying rendering on a mediochre instrument to a mecahnical rendering on a top instrument.

 

Cheers,

John

[Azalin]

I know first-hand that Azalin plays nice music on whatever concertina is in his hands.

 

It's very nice of you, but I'm reworking all of my tunes since I got my classes in East Durham, so who knows how it will sound next time we meet :-)

[David Levine]

I hate it that you think I am being nice to you. Nobody would be nice to you. Unless they don't know you.

 

Somebody said the concertina is like a Rubik's Cube - and in that sense I am continually reworking what I do on the instrument as fingering choices become more obvious.

Edited August 1, 2008 by cocusflute

[Azalin]

I hate it that you think I am being nice to you. Nobody would be nice to you. Unless they don't know you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I feel like people are being nice to me when they're being neutral :-)

 

Somebody said the concertina is like a Rubik's Cube - and in that sense I am continually reworking what I do on the instrument as fingering choices become more obvious.

 

Yeah, nice way to put it. But my week in Catskills has been like a revelation to me. I always knew I wasnt playing the instrument right, but was to lazy to take the time to investiguate :-) I'm now going through tunes I know and re-working each of them. It takes time, I spent 3-4 hours of practice/day in the last ten days working on 10-15 tunes. Some of them require minor changes, many of them require major changes. For example, I spent two hours yesterday working on the 4 parts version in "G" of Dublin reel. I used to mostly use the pull high B on the right side on this tune, which was a disaster and I ended up never playing the tune. Now I'm pushing the high B on the left side, and I'm now able to "roll" it, and it makes all the difference. It's entirely new phrasing and the tune is a deligh to play, it's just very, very hard to relearn a tune and especially these passages with rolling the high B. So I'll need to do the same with 150 tunes, I'll be busy for a while :-)

Edited August 1, 2008 by Azalin

[hjcjones]

Whilst a side-by-side technical comparison might be interesting, I'm not sure it would tell you what the instrument would be like to play, and even less whether it would be the right instrument for you. When you're comparing instruments of similar build quality, so much comes down to personal preferences and what feels right for you.

 

I've played some excellent instruments (and not just concertinas) which were undoubtedly fine instruments but which just didn't feel right to me. I sold a melodeon, although it looked beautiful and sounded great, because it didn't feel right to play. Whether this was the weight, or weight distribution, or the stiffness of the bellows, or the action I'm not sure, but I never really got on with it, so it went to a good home.

 

I recently had the chance to play someone's new instrument. It was by a reputable maker, it sounded good, and he was thrilled to bits with it, but it just didn't do anything for me. Nothing at all wrong with it, just different personal preferences.

 

I once spent a whole afternoon going between two different music shops trying to decide between two different guitars. They were both the same make and model, but each was slightly different to play. I kept trying the two until I was finally forced into a decision because the shops were closing!

[ceemonster]

re "versus" implying a slaptdown----yes, i see what you mean. i don't know about ireland, but in america, a less-frequent usage of this word, depending on context, can legitimately indicate a "compare-and-contrast" meaning, but the primary, most-frequent sense of the word is indeed godzilla-versus-rodan.

[Azalin]

but the primary, most-frequent sense of the word is indeed godzilla-versus-rodan.

 

Are you comparing Suttner to Godzilla???