New Guy Questions ?

[Sawfooter]

Hi all.

I am considering buying a concertina and have some quseitons. First off I am not into irish music. I play other instruments and want a concertina. I am trying to understand the difference between the english and anglo. It seems english has all the keys of the piano (less octaves) and anglo has no sharps and flats???? Correct??

1.How do you play popluar hymns and christmas carols on an anglo if there are no sharps or flats????

2. I have $175 store credit at Music123 and they only sell the anglos the HohnerD40 ($175) and their store brand Musicians Gear($125) Is there much difference in them making the Hohner worth $50 more??

Your help is appreciated.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Sawfooter

[Richard Morse]

There are 3 types of concertinas - anglo, English and duet. Simply speaking:

 

The anglo has bass and treble sides and each button plays a different note depending if you're pulling or pushing on the bellows. It's quite easy to play a tune (on the treble side) and accompaniment (on the bass side). They are set with two "home keys" (like C and G) which each have their own "row". Those Music123 concertinas have two rows of buttons on each side so they play in two keys. There aren't any accidentals available beyond the notes in those keys (and some of the notes IN those keys are missing at the extreme high and low ends).

 

You can play a lot of music on a 20-button anglo (2-row) but will find that tunes in those keys can be somewhat limiting. A 30-button anglo (3-rows) is a lot more flexible as that third row is full of accidentals and reversed home notes. You'll be able to play carols and hymns lushly in the home keys with the aid of the third/accidentals row. The accidentals row also lets you play in other keys but that is much more difficult to do. Of course you can get anglos with more than 30 buttons which makes them even more flexible.

 

So if you stick to the home keys you're in great shape. If you play with other people or for singers who want other keys... you either have to be wicked good or you sing (don't play).

 

The English concertina plays the same note for each button on the push or pull. The fingering of the scales is such that one goes back and forth from one side to the other. I know this sounds strange but it allows the fingers to play incredibly quickly, and due to the note layout this makes chording and playing in many keys fairly easy. Unfortunately due to the back/forth between the sides, it makes playing full accompaniment while playing a tune quite challenging - but for tunes with the errant/sparse harmonies and ability to play in many keys - it's a very good choice.

 

And then there're duets. They play the same note for each button on push or pull AND they have a treble and bass side. This makes it very easy to play tunes and accompaniment, and being fully chromatic they can also play in any key. There are several duet fingering systems.... The Hayden is drop dead easy to play in 6 keys and very difficult in the others. The Crane and Maccann are very easy to play in C and get progressively more difficult to play in the other keys (yet no where near as difficult as the Hayden is in those keys).

 

Duets were designed to play multi-part music and were the favored concertina of many stage performers and the Salvation Army.

 

I don't know if there is any quality difference between those two Music123 choices - they are both "bottom-of-the-heap" concertinas. I'd be very surprised if they worked without some tinkering. They'll also be pretty stiff, not to pitch, tough to play and very limiting (having only two keys). If you don't mind most of your playing being in C and G I suggest that you get a "Rochelle" which is a 30-button anglo and available from many sponsors on this site for about $340. It's an incredible value in increased action speed, reed response, tuning, tone and durability that you'll not be able to equal until you start comparing boxes about twice that price.

 

The best entry Englishes are the "Jackie" and "Jack" models (similarly priced from the same dealers).

 

The only entry duet is a "Stagi" Hayden which will run close to $1000 which really isn't much better (if at all) in quality than the aformentioned (but that's the difference between Italian and Chinese labor).

 

If you're fence-sitting about this you may want to consider renting a box. They run about $25-35 per month. That way you can try out all three systems pretty cheaply before plunking down some dough on what you want. Saves a lot of hassle and expense of working out "what works for you".

 

An interesting adventure at the very least! Welcome to the obsession!

 

-- Rich --

[Sawfooter]

Thank You Richard for taking the time to reply in such detail which is rare on alot of boards!

I have read alot about the Rochelle,and the Jack and Jackie They sound like a quality instrument. If i were to go that way and not use my store credit I believe I

would want an english because it sounds more like a complete instrument and the push pull change of the anglo sounds like it would be hard to adjust switch to an english later on....

so How do I know which one s right the Jack or jackie model??? I like to sing and play if that is important at all.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Sawfooter

[Richard Morse]

I have read alot about the Rochelle,and the Jack and Jackie They sound like a quality instrument.

Well... Highest quality in their market range (starter-level concertinas).

If i were to go that way and not use my store credit I believe I would want an english because it sounds more like a complete instrument and the push pull change of the anglo sounds like it would be hard to adjust switch to an english later on....

Not necessarily so. Many people have made the switch and a number play both systems. A few play 3 or more systems! Things like bellows control, key action and instrument holding/balance are pretty box-universal.

so How do I know which one s right the Jack or jackie model??? I like to sing and play if that is important at all.

The difference is the range of tones. The Jackie is a "treble" model with a range of G below middle C to the C two octaves above MC. The Jack is a "baritone" model with a range an octave lower. The Jackie's range allows tunes to be played in the range they would normally be played in but it lacks much in the way of low notes (singers often prefer the instrument to play below their voice range for good support and accompaniment). The Jack is great for supportive work as it can play beneath a singer's range easily and allows low, smooth chords... but isn't ideal for tunes. Sure, you can play tunes on it but tunes that don't fit in their normal range would need to be played an octave lower. Personally I don't find this to be a problem as the lower timbre allows it to be "heard/differentiated" from other instruments.

 

-- Rich --

[Sawfooter]

Thank You for the reply I have 4 more questions......

1. Which is easier to learn to play a 30 button Anglo or English ??

2. So a 30 anglo has all the sharps and flats as well?

3. Which has the best resale value and is easiest to resell??

4. So an anglo has a fuller sound because you can play the melody and accompment at the same time?? Which is the most versitile instrument... I get the Impression the English is just a lead instrument and does not sound as good played by itself Which is how I will be using it mostly???

Edited July 13, 2008 by Sawfooter

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

Hi, as an active Salvation Army Officer I mainly use my English Concertinas for playing Hymns & Carols etc. I regularly lead worship on my own with my English Concertina in a number of churches. Although the SA used a lot of Duets traditionally - most Officers that I know migrated to the EC because of its extremely flexible music-making abilities. I would seriously recommend that you think about EC - you say that " i get the Impression the English is just a lead instrument and does not sound as good played by itself Which is how I will be using it mostly??? " This I think is a most erroneous perception. The very reason that Salvation Army Officers carried their English Concertinas all over the world was because they had a most complete and portable instrumental alternative to either a piano or organ - able to play flashing lead lines and /OR chordal accompaniment.

BTW I started out learning to play the concertina on a 'Jackie' model. But soon wanted a 'proper' concertina so found myself going to Chris Algar at Barleycorn Concertinas and got myself a good quality vintage English Concertina. I recommend that you contact Chris as he's a really helpful guy who is able to give expert advice - and doesn't have any particular axe to grind. Goto: http://www.concertina.co.uk/ he probably stocks the largest range of quality secondhand concertinas in the world! I don't actually think I'm exagerrating? Anyway, gotta go now as I'm doing a Sunday afternoon service here in Chesterfield...using my trusty Wheatsone 48 key treble English!

God Bless, AL.

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

Thank You for the reply I have 4 more questions......

1. Which is easier to learn to play a 30 button Anglo or English ??

English is good if you read music - anglo if you don't

2. So a 30 anglo has all the sharps and flats as well?

no - only has some accidentals! So you will always be somewhat limited what key you can play in!!! EC is fully chromatic and able to play in just about any key. I like F#Major (all the outside notes!)

3. Which has the best resale value and is easiest to resell??

Depends how much you paid in the first place - Anglo's seem to be leading the way price wise (mainly I think because of the desire for Irish music!)

4. So an anglo has a fuller sound because you can play the melody and accompment at the same time?? Which is the most versitile instrument... I get the Impression the English is just a lead instrument and does not sound as good played by itself Which is how I will be using it mostly???

NO Way - see my previous posting.

God Bless, CaptainAL

[Greg Jowaisas]

Thank You for the reply I have 4 more questions......

1. Which is easier to learn to play a 30 button Anglo or English ??

English is good if you read music - anglo if you don't

2. So a 30 anglo has all the sharps and flats as well?

no - only has some accidentals! So you will always be somewhat limited what key you can play in!!! EC is fully chromatic and able to play in just about any key. I like F#Major (all the outside notes!)

3. Which has the best resale value and is easiest to resell??

Depends how much you paid in the first place - Anglo's seem to be leading the way price wise (mainly I think because of the desire for Irish music!)

4. So an anglo has a fuller sound because you can play the melody and accompment at the same time?? Which is the most versitile instrument... I get the Impression the English is just a lead instrument and does not sound as good played by itself Which is how I will be using it mostly???

NO Way - see my previous posting.

God Bless, CaptainAL

 

First, let me say "Welcome, Sawfooter, to the wonderful (if sometimes wacky) world of concertinas. Enjoy your adventure!

 

Let me compliment Richard Morse on a tour d'force concise introductory explanation on the different concertina systems. (Perhaps it could be a permanent part of concertina.net's Buyer's Guide?)

 

I think Captain Al has a very good point in that the english concertina can play a boatload of chords for a singer's accompaniment. But it is a bit tricky to do it at the same time while preserving and promoting the melody as a soloist. Sea chanty singer Lou Killen accompanies himself on english and is an upper end example of what is possible.

 

Something to keep in mind is that Wim Wakker's Concertina Connection Rochelle, Jack and Jackie often come with a trade in option that not only is good with the CC but is also honored by some of the others who sell Wim's concertinas.

 

As a singer I would opt for the bartione pitched Jack in choosing an entry level english.

 

Sawfoot, if you give us an idea of where you live we might be able to recommend a seller in your area. You might even get an invite from a nearby concertina.net member to drop by and try out some different concertina systems.

 

Best of luck,

 

Greg

[yankeeclipper]

I think the description of the EC given in the summary of concertina types posted near the top was inadequate. Being fully chromatic, with the same range as the violin, the EC is a wonderfully versatile instrument. You can play any style of music ever written for fiddle, in any key you like, and get sheet music for it anywhere. You can play complex melodies rich in accidentals without having to fake it. And you can easily transpose from and to any key to accompany any other instrument. I enjoy playing folk, classical, klezmer and ragtime on my EC - it makes for great duets with oboe or clarinet! The diatonic Anglos are excellent instruments and deserve their popularity, but they are limited in the keys they can play.

Edited July 14, 2008 by yankeeclipper

[Simon H]

You could do a lot worse than go along to the tunes page : http://www.anglo-concertina.net/links.htm

and listen to as many examples as you can of all the types of instruments to see the scope and range and styles achievable with the different types of concertina. Youtube is a good resource too. This way you can discover for yourself whether you have any misapprehensions as to what can and can't be played, and what sounds good or otherwise on different instruments. This should allow you to do an objective assessment and also be able to hear the multitude of styles and approaches to the instrument.

 

Simon

[hjcjones]

I don't think you can say whether one system is easier than another. For some, the anglo is the most intuitive, but others can't get their heads around having a different note on each button and the push-pull bellows action required. Others, myself included, can't get their heads around having the tune alternate from one end of the box to another.

 

Try to get your hands on the different systems and get a feel for them. What kind of music do you want to play? Is there a player whose music has inspired you to take up the instrument - what to they play? It will also depend on what kind of music you want to play.

[Sawfooter]

I want to play everything from classical to hymns to some irish..... I play harmonica and guitar at the same time which to me is intuitive but the idea of a diferent note on the push pull sounds harder. There are alot more anglos for sale so that makes me think they are more popular and easier to play ??

[spindizzy]

I want to play everything from classical to hymns to some irish..... I play harmonica and guitar at the same time which to me is intuitive but the idea of a diferent note on the push pull sounds harder. There are alot more anglos for sale so that makes me think they are more popular and easier to play ??

 

You've already got the push pull idea if you play harmonica - push pull = suck blow. The notes on each row are arranged pretty much the same way as well - just think of a 2 row anglo as two harmonicas stacked up

[Sawfooter]

Well that makes sense.... But I Switch harmonica when the songs change keys so how do you play in A with a C/G anglo?? That sounds a bit difficult??

[wntrmute]

Well that makes sense.... But I Switch harmonica when the songs change keys so how do you play in A with a C/G anglo?? That sounds a bit difficult??

Depends. On a 30 button C/G, you have an accidental row, which includes C# and G#. It is a bit trickier in the fingering and you don't have as many options for each note as you do with the keys of C or G, but it can be done.

 

I suppose you could, in theory, play something in C# major; but there the fingering would get pretty hairy and your fingers would likely be braided in a few measures. I think a C/G 30 button can comfortably play F, C, G, and D (with their associated minors, dorians, myxomolydians (sp?) or whatnot), and with some effort can add Eb and A. 3 or more flats or 4 or more sharps would likely be increasingly difficult and limited. With each accidental the options for cross-row techniques or alternate fingerings decrease.

 

A 20 button Anglo will only play in C or G (and associated modes) because it only has F#'s for accidentals.

 

There are G/D, D/A, F/C, Eb/Bb and other keyed 30 button Anglos out there; G/D is a popular option it seems.

 

The push/pull thing is almost exactly like a harmonica so that would be pretty intuitive for you I would think. Concertinas and harmonicas are both based on the Richter scale. One person here did point out that he tended to alter his breathing when playing the concertina to match the notes, as if he were still huffing and puffing on a harmonica.

[yankeeclipper]

No prob! Just put down your C/G and grab your A/E. Or fake it with a G/D, or C#/G#, or F/C, or maybe a G/C/D. Or... you could get an EC to begin with, and play in any key you want!

[Chris Timson]

Or... you could get an EC to begin with, and play in any key you want!

Yeah, but where's the fun in that?

 

Chris

[Anglo-Irishman]

The push/pull thing is almost exactly like a harmonica so that would be pretty intuitive for you I would think. Concertinas and harmonicas are both based on the Richter scale. One person here did point out that he tended to alter his breathing when playing the concertina to match the notes, as if he were still huffing and puffing on a harmonica.

 

Yes, that's what happened to me when I started on the concertina. Having played the harmonica as a child, I had an initial learning curve on the Anglo that was practically vertical - as far as finding the notes was concerned. It took me a lot longer to uncouple my lungs from the bellows. I think that didn't happen until I tried singing with concertina accompaniment.

 

Cheers,

John