Wikipedia Edit War

[JimLucas]

My opinion is the "concertina sounds like an accordion" sound because of the reeds is just a little bogus.

I think some people may be taking this a bit too literally. I don't think it's meant to mean an accordion-reeded concertina is indistinguishable from an accordion.

And I think you are trying too hard to dampen the controversy. The statement in question (in the modified Wiki text) was, " 'hybrid' instruments have a distinctive accordion-like tone." (My emphasis.) All by itself and without my adding any "interpretation", that seems pretty unambiguous -- or "literal" -- to me, and for me to not take it "literally" would mean that I shouldn't expect the author to mean what (s)he says... in which case, what's the use of the "information"? No, it's meant to be taken literally.

[Richard Morse]

What term would you prefer, after all you have developed you range of instruments. Rich & Ted please comment too if you wish.

I like the term "hybrid" for our (Morse, Edgley , Tedrow, etc.) concertinas as their design/construction closely follows the accepted definition: Something created from two different breeds/species/varieties. They are *as* traditional concertinas in virtually every way but for the reeds. The reeds *are* accordion reeds.

I'd think that the more significant distinction should be between Concertinas produced in small batches by craftsmen, and those that are factory mass-produced.

What would that distinction be? The quality Aeolas Dickinson makes one-off is right in the same quality range as the Wheatstone factory in the 1920's when they were making scores of Aeolas per year.

So you could have a Stagi Factory Hybrid...

I don't consider a Stagi to be a hybrid as they're basically an accordion in concertina form - I call them CSO's - Concertina Shaped Objects. I'm not being derogatory about it, but it's another simple and descriptive word. Stagis started out from accordiondom with the intent to make a concertina shaped instrument with accordion technology. Still, they are concertinas.

Presumably the cheap end of the Lachenals would be Lachenal Factory Traditional Concertinas?

Why separate Lachenal's cheap end from their top-of-the-line as both were made in large quantities - and in the same factory. I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make here. It sounds like you consider factory (large-batch) making to be of inferior quality?

Frankly, owners of Ceili and Albions, Edgleys, Normans and Tedrows - who of you, when asked "what is this cute little accordion you are playing?", answers: - "Oh, it's a Hybrid".

I'd answer that it's a concertina. If they ask "what kind (or type)", I'd answer English (or anglo). And if they ask about the design or construction I'd say that it's a hybrid (and explain if they need more info).

 

-- Rich --

[Richard Morse]

Of course accordion-reeded concertinas don't have multiple reeds per note, wet-tuned. We know that, it doesn't have to be repeated every time.

Actually there are many concertinas with 2, 3 and 4 reeds per note, some quite wet-tuned.

 

-- Rich --

[Boney]

The statement in question (in the modified Wiki text) was, " 'hybrid' instruments have a distinctive accordion-like tone." (My emphasis.) All by itself and without my adding any "interpretation", that seems pretty unambiguous -- or "literal" -- to me, and for me to not take it "literally" would mean that I shouldn't expect the author to mean what (s)he says... in which case, what's the use of the "information"? No, it's meant to be taken literally.

So when someone says a certain concertina has a "distinctive clarinet-like tone" is that meant to be taken literally too? Surely you wouldn't really think it was a clarinet playing, the sound is just somewhat reminiscent of one.

 

Of course accordion-reeded concertinas don't have multiple reeds per note, wet-tuned. We know that, it doesn't have to be repeated every time.

Actually there are many concertinas with 2, 3 and 4 reeds per note, some quite wet-tuned.

Yes, I guess that's worth a mention. But I meant that just by changing from concertina reeds to accordion reeds, we all understand you don't get that multiple-reed, musette sound.

[Woody]

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make here. It sounds like you consider factory (large-batch) making to be of inferior quality?

Sorry Rich - maybe a bad choice of word. What I'm alluding to is the level of craftmanship and attention to detail involved in the production of the instrument. Presumably the cheaper mass-produced boxes were not made by their master craftsmen with the same quality materials & attention to detail as their best instruments. Certainly the level of craftsmanship involved in producing my Norman seems to far exceed that which was involved in producing my 26-button ex-Salvation Army Jones - even though the latter is a traditional Concertina reeded instrument. If you had a factory with 1000 Colin Dippers then obviously you could produce a lot of fine boxes. Perhaps we should clone him?

 

The main distinction I'm alluding to is that Morses, Normans et al seem to me to have more in common action/response/quality wise with Wheatstones, Jeffries and better Lachenals, than they do with other accordion reeded instruments e.g. Stagis, Rochelle, cheap Chinese boxes.

[ragtimer]

I don't consider a Stagi to be a hybrid as they're basically an accordion in concertina form - I call them CSO's - Concertina Shaped Objects. I'm not being derogatory about it, but it's another simple and descriptive word. Stagis started out from accordiondom with the intent to make a concertina shaped instrument with accordion technology. Still, they are concertinas

-- Rich --

Rich, didn't we have a thread about this a year ago? I don't know quite where you draw the line betweeen accordion and tina, but ISTR two items:

 

(1) Radial (traditional English) versus parallel (German) action levers, and

(2) Reeds mounted flat on the board, rather than standing on end in cells.

 

There's a correlation here too, since parallel action pretty much packs the reeds so close together that they must stand on end.

 

Stagis have parallel action and end-standing reed cells, making them more like accordians.

The ROchelle and Jackie have radial action but reed cells, so are closer to "hybrid" than a Stagi is.

 

The "true hybrids" have radial action and flat-mounted reeds. Does that agree with your ideas?

 

FWIW, my Bastari Hayden Duet 67 is really a Bandoneon with a fingering system originally invented for concertinas

 

Also FWIW, I suspect most people, upon hearing ANY free reed instrument, think of Accordians -- or maybe harmonicas. --Mike K.

Edited December 13, 2007 by ragtimer

[wntrmute]

My understanding was that a concertina differes from an accordion in that the concertina:

a. makes only one note per button. The note may be in octaves, but it's always just one note for each button;

and

b. has buttons that are pressed parallel with the bellows direction. Accordion buttons are at an angle from the direction of bellows travel.

 

 

Also, concertinas are way cool and not at all dorky.

Edited December 13, 2007 by wntrmute

[JimLucas]

My understanding was that a concertina differes from an accordion in that the concertina:

a. makes only one note per button. The note may be in octaves, but it's always just one note for each button;

and

b. has buttons that are pressed parallel with the bellows direction. Accordion buttons are at an angle from the direction of bellows travel.

And how would you class a Dipper "franglo"?

 

If you've read through the earlier thread(s) discussing "what's a concertina", you must know that there are both respected "experts" who don't entirely agree with you or each other, and exceptions to any set of rules or definitions.

 

In the end, I think it's better if we don't try to declare "rules" or "definitions", but simply discuss, with further discussion to resolve any uncertainties or ambiguities, if necessary.

 

Also, concertinas are way cool and not at all dorky.

There are those who would disagree on that point, too.

(I suspect even some who would think that anyone who still uses the word "dorky" is dorky. )

[wntrmute]

And how would you class a Dipper "franglo"?

It's an accordion.

In German 'Akkord' means chord, which is how the Akkordeon got its name.

If it can play chords with a single button, it's an accordion.

 

Stagi makes something like that, eight chords on the left hand and a button accordion layout on the right.

 

ETA: Of course, I also married my ex-wife...my judgement probably ain't all that.

 

I suppose the worm-can picture will get posted again.

Edited December 13, 2007 by wntrmute

[Stephen Chambers]

I suppose the worm-can picture will get posted again.

You might be beginning to see my point!

[david_boveri]

Well, the matter seems to have been settled, and the whole issue has been dodged in a new revision of the article in a non-biased way.

 

Also, I've got the message and I'll avoid cluttering the forums with wikipedia conflict posts -- however, I'll still whine, beg, plead, and otherwise fuss about getting more information for it on occassion. There is a lot of very good knowledge on these boards, and I can't ignore that.

 

it's not cluttering! it's one thread. if somebody's interested, they dont have to look. i wasnt particularly interested, so i just made snarky comments along the way. i think its a great idea to talk about wikipedia on here, as that way we can get some attention onto articles that we're all interested in.

[JimLucas]

The statement in question (in the modified Wiki text) was, " 'hybrid' instruments have a distinctive accordion-like tone." (My emphasis.) All by itself and without my adding any "interpretation", that seems pretty unambiguous -- or "literal" -- to me, and for me to not take it "literally" would mean that I shouldn't expect the author to mean what (s)he says... in which case, what's the use of the "information"? No, it's meant to be taken literally.

So when someone says a certain concertina has a "distinctive clarinet-like tone" is that meant to be taken literally too?

Yep. I would say so.

 

Surely you wouldn't really think it was a clarinet playing, the sound is just somewhat reminiscent of one.

There are varying degrees of "somewhat". If I hear it, and without anybody else saying so I think, "That sounds rather like a clarinet," then I would consider it to be "clarinet-like". Otherwise, not. I wouldn't say that a saxophone sounds "clarinet-like", even though the way they produce their sounds is very similar, and it is a kind of "hybrid" between a clarinet and "brass" instruments.. (I'd love to hear the "saxophone" concertina that Wheatstone made for Alf Edwards, to see whether I felt it sounded "like a saxophone".)

 

Maybe someone who had heard accordions but never a vintage concertina would feel that a "hybrid" concertina had an "accordion-like" sound (how many people think a concertina is an "accordion"?), but to someone who is familiar with both, I don't think so. I don't think their sound should be described as "accordion-like", because I don't think it sounds like an accordion. They don't all sound alike, but of those I've heard, to my ear they all sound more like "concertina" than like "accordion".

[Boney]

I don't think their sound should be described as "accordion-like", because I don't think it sounds like an accordion. They don't all sound alike, but of those I've heard, to my ear they all sound more like "concertina" than like "accordion".

I don't quite follow you -- wouldn't a concertina with a "clarinet-like tone" sound more like a concertina than a clarinet too? You wouldn't mistake it for a clarinet (which is what I meant by saying it doesn't "literally" sound like a clarinet). I think the comparison with an accordion is similar.

[bill_mchale]

And how would you class a Dipper "franglo"?

It's an accordion.

In German 'Akkord' means chord, which is how the Akkordeon got its name.

If it can play chords with a single button, it's an accordion.

 

Stagi makes something like that, eight chords on the left hand and a button accordion layout on the right.

 

ETA: Of course, I also married my ex-wife...my judgement probably ain't all that.

 

I suppose the worm-can picture will get posted again.

 

There is a small problem with your definition of an accordion. Free-bass accordions only play one note per button on both sides. The right hand side is arranged to make it easy to play chords, but in theory, one could play melody on the bass side of such an accordion.

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

And how would you class a Dipper "franglo"?

It's an accordion.

In German 'Akkord' means chord, which is how the Akkordeon got its name.

If it can play chords with a single button, it's an accordion.

So you claim that the many concertina players who class it as a concertina -- including Colin Dipper, who both makes them and plays one -- are simply wrong, because we feel that the classification of free reed instruments is more subtle and complex than your simple definition? For that matter, I wonder how many accordion makers and accordion players would class it as an "accordion". Very few, I suspect.

 

As a side note, I thought the word "accordion" came from the French, not the German. Isn't "harmonka" the German word for accordion?

[ragtimer]

I don't consider a Stagi to be a hybrid as they're basically an accordion in concertina form - I call them CSO's - Concertina Shaped Objects. I'm not being derogatory about it, but it's another simple and descriptive word. Stagis started out from accordiondom with the intent to make a concertina shaped instrument with accordion technology. Still, they are concertinas

-- Rich --

Rich, didn't we have a thread about this a year ago? I don't know quite where you draw the line betweeen accordion and tina, but ISTR two items:

 

(1) Radial (traditional English) versus parallel (German) action levers, and

(2) Reeds mounted flat on the board, rather than standing on end in cells.

Oops, I mispoke here -- what I meant to ask RIch was, where he draws the line between CSOs (Chinese instruments of torture and Stagis) and true hybrid tinas (such as his own excellent products).

I do suspect it has to do witht he two construction details above. Note that (2) would rule out the Rochelle/Jackie from being a "hybrid".

 

As far as concertinas with chord-playing buttons, or single-note LH ended with accordion type button setups on the RH -- THESE are the real Hybrids! No need to open them up and look inside to see if they're "hybrid" or "traditional" -- they are definitely a cross-breed of two kinds of instrument. And a great idea, if we could figure out what to call them :-)

--Mike K.

Edited December 14, 2007 by ragtimer

[wntrmute]

the classification of free reed instruments is more subtle and complex than your simple definition? For that matter, I wonder how many accordion makers and accordion players would class it as an "accordion". Very few, I suspect.

What, exactly, is your subtle and complex definition, then?

And I'll take another look at my own definition, because after having read through some of the older threads I have come to disagree with my earlier answer.

As a side note, I thought the word "accordion" came from the French, not the German. Isn't "harmonka" the German word for accordion?

German. Demian, who patented the first accordion with the name accordian called it an accordion in Vienna. Wo leute sprechen auf Deutsch. The term handharmonika has been used for bellows driven free-reeds, but accordion and/or akkordion has also been used. Uhlig described his first concertina as an 'akkordion nach neuer Art,' or an 'accordion of/after (a) new style/type/way/kind' in 1834.

The patent for the accordion describes an instrument that plays only chords on the left hand.

A later development was to combine the left handed accordion (which had no right hand keys) with the right handed flutina (originally called Clavier Melodique in France where it was first built, and which had no keys on the left hand). This was contemporaneous with the development of the concertina. So at that time, these were the characteristics that differentiated the several kinds of accordion and the concertina of both the English and German types:

1. The action. Concertina buttons were pressed in the direction of the bellows travel, while for accordions the buttons were at an angle from the bellows travel.

2.(a) Chords. Accordions played chords, concertinas did not. As for free-bass accordions, my understanding is that most (if not all) of those still include buttons that either always make chords or that can be switched to making chords.

2.( Key layouts. The two sides of the accordion were based on fundamentally different systems from one another (obviously, since there are almost always chords on the left side and not on the right), concertinas used the same underlying system or pattern on both sides. This difference still applies to accordions including most (if not all) free-bass systems. On Duet, Chemnitzer, Bandoneon, and some Anglo concertinas this did not lead to a perfect symmetry between the two sides (more buttons on the right than the left), but the same core pattern was used to develop both ends' layouts.

2.© Symmetry. Because of 2.( above, the two sides of the concertina are usually symmetric, while the two sides of most accordions is different. However, this comes into the shape of the instrument (discussed more below), and there is nothing that keeps someone from making a concertina square at one end and round on the other. Beyond asthetics and good taste, I suppose.

Of these differences, the least significant meaningful difference is the first (end-blown flutes and recorders are every bit as much flutes as are the transverse flutes that people tend to picture when the word 'flute' is mentioned) -- yet it does remain a meaningful distinction between types within a larger family (as it does with the case of the flute family). The second difference (which I have defined three ways) is mostly derived from the first definition which is based on the history of the development of the accordion, but all three definitions are very much related to each other and could probably be sensibly compressed into 2.( alone.

Reeds are not a good way to differentiate between accordions and concertinas, because there has been a bewildering variety of reed techniques that have been used by both families, with a lot of exchange between them. For example, flutinas generally used reeds with shoes like the English concertina; German concertinas used long-plate reeds like accordions. As this thread (and many others) demonstrates, there is a lot of useless back and forth over reeds even now with little agreement.

The shape of the instrument is irrelevant. A bass clarinet is not a saxophone regardless of the fact that it kinda sorta looks like one. A harpsichord isn't a piano, though it looks like one, and neither of those is an organ. A house- or Prussian helmet-shaped concertina is not a regular polygon in shape, yet it remains a concertina. For this reason, I don't think that the shape of the ends is a meaningful measure.

The manufacturer is irrelevant. If Mr. Dipper makes a metal tube-shaped instrument played by blowing a raspberry into one end it's not a concertina but a horn.

 

As a visually oriented person, a chart would help me make the point a bit better:

				Symmetric Keyboards		Asymmetric Keyboards
Parallel Action:	Concertina				Franglo*
Angled Action:	  Hybrid-bandoneon**		Accordion

*And the bandonika and buttontina.

**Made by Mr. Geuns. This would be where a (theoretical?) free-base accordion system with a symmetric button arrangement would go, too.

Note, too, that 'symmetric keyboards' is referring to the pattern behind the keyboard, not the actual button count.

 

I would argue that the lower left and upper right catagories are simply families which had not yet been named for lack of any members until recently. The Franglo and hybrid-bandoneon are as distinct from one another as accordions and concertinas are, and yet both of those former are related to both of the latter to the exact same degree -- but in the distinct ways shown above. The Franglo is related to the Buttontina in the same way that an Anglo is related to a Chemnitzer. However, this does change my earlier answer from classifying the Franglo as an accordion to calling it its own thing, a member of a yet-to-be-named family of instruments. Neither the accordion nor the concertina can claim it as a sub-set in the same way that the accordion cannot claim the concertina family as a sub-set, and for the same reasons.

 

I would also propose the terms "Accordina" for the Franglo and its kin and the term "Concerteon" ("concertion" would likely be mispronounced as kon-ser'-shun instead of kon-ser'-tea-on) for the hybrid bandoneon and its kin. Alternatively, George and Mopsey would make lovely names.

[m3838]

Well firstly I'll think you'll find that animals don't produce Pollen, so that's a bit wide of the mark.

 

Don't they?

 

 

 

We use it as a shorthand to describe this group of Concertinas in how they differ from traditionally reeded Concertinas.

 

And I thought it's a common knowledge nowadays, that "traditional" (inexpencive German made 20 button) concertinas were accordion reeded. English makers chose their own design not because it was better, but because they had it. It's their desperate attempt to survive in the market dominated by German instruments, that forced them start making Anglos for the commons, so their instruments were true Hybrids (yach ). So a purist should demand concertina with reeds, riveted to a single zinc plate.

I think Rich Morce, who came up with this term, unwillingly implied inferiority. The result is necessity to explain over and over again that "H...word" doesn't mean "bad" or "cheap", but something etherial, unimportant, and unworthy of explanation, by no means implicating the bad quality. Like Stalin used to say: "No man, no problem".