Duet On Anglo Basis

[respi]

Dear all,

 

after putting some days ago a question into this discussion forum regarding the „right“, affordable concertina for chromatic play and smooth sound, I have been thinking about the right instrument for me (anglo or english) and came to the conclusion, that for my needs a Duet would be the best…

Now I have been loking for Duets, and there are different systems. The most logical for me is the Hayden-System, but all Duets have the disadvantage of too many buttons (and therefore a higher weight and price). So I have been thinking about a easier, simpler system, and there is my proposal, based on a 30 button anglo:

 

Left side Right side

a# h c’ d’ c’# c’’# d’’ e’’ f’’ d#

f# f g a g# g’# a’ h’ c’’ a’#

c# c d e d# d’# e’ f’ g’ f’#

 

Its range its limited to 2.5 octaves.

Right side is one third (+ one octave) away from the left side.

It would permit to play like a duet, but its construction basis would be an anglo, which should permit to build the concertina for less cost.

 

What do you think about it? Does this system already exist? If it does, where could I get it?

 

Regards,

 

respi

[Cream-T]

If you use the "code" function, you can get the layout better displayed - I'm a bit at a loss what you wanted to show. The normal text doesn't let you have more than one "non-breaking space" at a time. Try it out:

Left							   Right
12345							  67890

[Chris Allert]

i'll tell you if i like your system if you can tell me what note "h" is. is that the chirping bird button that's found on some lachenals?

[m3838]

You mean this?

 

-----------------------------------Left side-----------Right side

-------a#-----b-----c’-----d’-----c’#------||||||||||||-----c’’#-----d’’-----e’’-----f’’-----d#

----f#-----f------g------a------g#---------||||||||||||---------g’#------a’------b’------c’’-----a’#

c#----c------d------e------d#-------------||||||||||||---------------d’#-----e’------f-------g’-------f’#

 

It's smal Crane Duet with no duplication between left and right and slanted button layout.

The problem is your G row, that is suposed to be converted to low octave.

G is 5 tones higher than C, and there simply is no space for the low reeds inside,

unless you are completely rebuilding the reedpan and/or re-routing the levers.

 

I too, was pursuing similar goal, to convert small 20 button into chromatic. And I think

I succeeded. Mine is smaller, makes use of existing reeds, easy to modify, BUT requires lots of push/pulling, which you seem to avoid.

 

What you've designed is workable, compact melody instrument.

If you make 'G' below middle 'c' the lowest note on the right - you might avoid having to play melody on the squeekers. But instead you can repeat your a#---b---c'---d'---c'# on the right. It will give you ability to play good soundiing chords on the left and trebble will not go so high. It will shrink your melody range though.

 

You'll have to find "cheap" chinese 30 button with reedbanks and refit it with the reeds from "cheap" piano accordion.

Concertina will run $200, small PA with tuned reeds - $150.

Reworking the banks and tuning - another $150.

So you'll get very small Crane duet with bad bellows, not guaranteed sound and slow

action for the price of small English made Crane Duet.

[JimLucas]

i'll tell you if i like your system if you can tell me what note "h" is.

In many European countries/languages "H" designates what Americans call "B", and their "B" is what we call "Bb".

[JimLucas]

You mean this?

 

-----------------------------------Left side-----------Right side

-------a#-----b-----c’-----d’-----c’#------||||||||||||-----c’’#-----d’’-----e’’-----f’’-----d#

----f#-----f------g------a------g#---------||||||||||||---------g’#------a’------b’------c’’-----a’#

c#----c------d------e------d#-------------||||||||||||---------------d’#-----e’------f-------g’-------f’#

 

It's smal Crane Duet with no duplication between left and right and slanted button layout.

Very similar to the Crane concept, though it differs in detail. In particular, the Crane sequence (in both hands) is:

--A#---B----D----C----C#-

--F#---F----A----G----G#-

--C#---C----E----D----D#-

and continuing upward it has the same similarity to what respi puts in his right hand. One feature of standard duets that respi's design lacks is a certain amount of overlp between the hands.

 

As for the number of buttons, 35-button Crane's do appear on eBay every so often.

[Chris Allert]

i'll tell you if i like your system if you can tell me what note "h" is.

In many European countries/languages "H" designates what Americans call "B", and their "B" is what we call "Bb".

 

thanks, i didn't know that. which languages is this common in? also, are there any other notes with different names? and do other english-speaking countries use this notation?

[malcolm clapp]

As for the number of buttons, 35-button Crane's do appear on eBay every so often.

 

 

 

Like this one here

Edited December 9, 2005 by malcolm clapp

[geoffwright]

Many composers have used the note H to write pieces with B-A-C-H as the theme.

A tutor told me one of his composition students handed in an assignment whcih the tutor could not make sense of - the student had used the numbers around a darts board as the theme. Hmmm

[Cream-T]

(...) In particular, the Crane sequence (in both hands) is: (...)

 

Quite, Jim. Although I (well, actually, most people) would call the "A#" to the left of the B a "Bb", since that's what it's mostly used as!

 

 

As for respi's suggestion: the Duet concertinas are called "Duet" because they have several notes overlapping in both hands, hence you're able to play a "duet" with yourself. Your suggestion gets rid of those notes - and makes your instrument not a Duet at all.

Edited December 9, 2005 by Cream-T

[JimLucas]

As for respi's suggestion: the Duet concertinas are called "Duet" because they have several notes overlapping in both hands, hence you're able to play a "duet" with yourself.

No. Overlap is a nice feature for a duet to have, but it doesn't define "duet". One can play independent parts in the two hands even without any overlap. The range in each hand could be identical, or there could be a huge gap of notes not found in either hand. Either arrangement would constrain what particular arrangements could be played, but it would still be possible to play two independent parts, i.e., a "duet".

 

It's true that all duets I've seen have some overlap -- from only a few notes on a 35-button to 1½ octaves on an 80-button, -- but anglos also have ovelap. It's simply a convenience that allows those doubled notes to be used for the parts in either hand.

[ucyljad]

Nice points Jim, duets are designed to accompany their melodies. I had a lightish 57 button that went down to g-2, but only overlapped between middle c and f. It had the smallest overlap I've ever played and was not to my liking.

 

 

Also about notation, this may be of interest, the oldest known:

http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.3/index.html#5105

Should we practise our heptatonic scales now or later?

 

Andy

[Ivan Viehoff]

i'll tell you if i like your system if you can tell me what note "h" is.

In many European countries/languages "H" designates what Americans call "B", and their "B" is what we call "Bb".

 

thanks, i didn't know that. which languages is this common in? also, are there any other notes with different names? and do other english-speaking countries use this notation?

This is German-speaking nomenclature, also used in places with German influence, such as the former Austro-Hungarian empire.

You can also sort-of get "S", because "E-flat" is called "Es" in German. Dmitri Shostakovich (Schostakowitsch transliterated to German) used D-Es-C-H as his theme.

[respi]

If you use the "code" function, you can get the layout better displayed - I'm a bit at a loss what you wanted to show. The normal text doesn't let you have more than one "non-breaking space" at a time. Try it out:

Left							   Right
12345							  67890

m3838 did the work for me, just see below.

 

regards,

 

respi

[respi]

i'll tell you if i like your system if you can tell me what note "h" is. is that the chirping bird button that's found on some lachenals?

As JimLucas says: H is your B, B (for us German-Speakers) is Bflat. What is your oppinion about this system?

[respi]

You mean this?

 

-----------------------------------Left side-----------Right side

-------a#-----b-----c’-----d’-----c’#------||||||||||||-----c’’#-----d’’-----e’’-----f’’-----d#

----f#-----f------g------a------g#---------||||||||||||---------g’#------a’------b’------c’’-----a’#

c#----c------d------e------d#-------------||||||||||||---------------d’#-----e’------f-------g’-------f’#

 

It's smal Crane Duet with no duplication between left and right and slanted button layout.

The problem is your G row, that is suposed to be converted to low octave.

G is 5 tones higher than C, and there simply is no space for the low reeds inside,

unless you are completely rebuilding the reedpan and/or re-routing the levers.

 

I too, was pursuing similar goal, to convert small 20 button into chromatic. And I think

I succeeded. Mine is smaller, makes use of existing reeds, easy to modify, BUT requires lots of push/pulling, which you seem to avoid.

 

What you've designed is workable, compact melody instrument.

If you make 'G' below middle 'c' the lowest note on the right - you might avoid having to play melody on the squeekers. But instead you can repeat your a#---b---c'---d'---c'# on the right. It will give you ability to play good soundiing chords on the left and trebble will not go so high. It will shrink your melody range though.

 

You'll have to find "cheap" chinese 30 button with reedbanks and refit it with the reeds from "cheap" piano accordion.

Concertina will run $200, small PA with tuned reeds - $150.

Reworking the banks and tuning - another $150.

So you'll get very small Crane duet with bad bellows, not guaranteed sound and slow

action for the price of small English made Crane Duet.

 

Thanks for your extended answer. As I understood, the Crane system is slightly different, as the notes don't follow each other (e.g. C, D, E), but are inverted (C, E, D, see also the comment of Jim Lucas).

Regarding your 20 button converted into chromatic: I guess you changed a C/G to C/C# or C/G#? This means, this system is not able to play all harmonics? Or do you have another solution?

Do you think there is a Crane Duet for 500 US$ on the market? Do you mean on eBay?

Regards,

 

respi

 

i'll tell you if i like your system if you can tell me what note "h" is.

In many European countries/languages "H" designates what Americans call "B", and their "B" is what we call "Bb".

 

thanks, i didn't know that. which languages is this common in? also, are there any other notes with different names? and do other english-speaking countries use this notation?

This is German-speaking nomenclature, also used in places with German influence, such as the former Austro-Hungarian empire.

You can also sort-of get "S", because "E-flat" is called "Es" in German. Dmitri Shostakovich (Schostakowitsch transliterated to German) used D-Es-C-H as his theme.

I didn't expect this outcome of my proposal. It's interesting what one can learn besides their other interests...

[JimLucas]

As I understood, the Crane system is slightly different, as the notes don't follow each other (e.g. C, D, E), but are inverted (C, E, D, see also the comment of Jim Lucas).

Well, they don't really run quite straight across, and I sometimes picture it mentally as being more like

--Ab---A----G----F----F#-
--Eb---E----D----C----C#-
--Bb---B----A----G----G#-
--F#---F----E----D----D#-
--C#---C--

with the D-E-F, G-A-B, etc. sequences running on a "rising" diagonal from right-to-left. But there's nothing inherently better or easier about C-D-E over C-E-D. The valves on brass instruments (trumpet, French horn, etc.) correspond to intervals of 1, 2, and 3 musical half steps, but they're arranged in the order 2-1-3. And even you haven't proposed that the layout should run across as C-C#-D-D#-E, though I once saw an instrument laid out like that.

 

Do you think there is a Crane Duet for 500 US$ on the market?

The 35-button Crane on eBay that Malcolm provided a link to is currently under $100.

[m3838]

>Thanks for your extended answer.

 

You're welcome. Actually I find your straight forward layout better than Crane's.

 

>Regarding your 20 button converted into chromatic: I guess you changed a C/G to C/C# or C/G#?

 

I started with it, tinkered with layouts and my financial opportunities married to quantity of spare time helped me to came up with very doable solution.

 

---------------C----G----c----e-----g----|||||----c'----e'-----g'----c''-----e''

---------------G----B----d----f-----a-----|||||----b----d'-----f'-----a'-----b'

 

-----------Bb----d----g#---b----d'#-----|||||-------g'#---b'-----d''----g''----b''

-----------d#-----f#--a#---c'#---e'------|||||-------f'#---a'#----c''#---e''----f''#

 

I checked C G D E A and most of the chords are there and even their 7ths.

Bb comes very handy actually. I was thinking whether to convert all B to Bbs and leave A untouched, but decided that duplicating As would be unnecessary. So I left B naturals as reversals and changed A to A#.

I'm yet to build one, but my paper practice is very encouraging.