Octave Playing In Morris Music

[Jim Besser]

William Kimber's approach when chords got difficult....for him, not very often!...was to go with some simple octave notes. He also went to octave playing when the melody line was especially rapid (sixteenth note runs on the B part of Soldier's Joy, for example). But his usual style of playing, which you might experiment with in addition to the other things you mentioned, was as follows:

 

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Thanks for the lucid explanation. I think I've been doing a lot of that, but it would be good to back and study him in more detail, now that I'm pretty comfortable with the tunes and the dances.

[Hilary]

BTW, are you anywhere near Cambridge University? My wayward child is arriving there today for grad school.

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Yep. If your son/daughter is interested in the morris, there are a number of options around here.

In Cambridge itself there are the ring founders - Cambridge Morris Men - keen, but not very dynamic these days. (Male dancers, one female musician -melodian)

Coton Morris Men - (that's my lot) like to think they are brilliant, younger than CCM, have fun! (Male dancers, male and female musicians - melodian, fiddles, anglo, english, whistle, pipe & tabor).

Then there are all sorts of mixed and female sides around as well as other male sides. e-mail me if you want any other info.

[geoffwright]

I have never really got my head around chords on anglo (hence attending Brian Peters' excellent workshop at Witney) BUT I play in octaves as often as I can - twice as loud.

You can emphasise the rhythm just the same and once you have worked out how to fiddle the crossover, it becomes second nature.

 

I promise I will work harder at my chords Brian.

[JimLucas]

I don't think you've quite understood me Jim.

I think you're right, but that's because your response seemed a non sequitur, addressing musical practice precisely the opposite of what Jim B. was asking about.

 

If you're playing moris tunes for the pleasure of playing it, as far as I'm concerned, anything goes if it works for the tune.  If you're playing for the dancing, the dance should take priority.

I think we're very much agreed here, but so is Jim, and I feel you must have misunderstood him. As I read his post, he was talking only about playing for dancing, and saying that he had adopted the octaves technique 1) only for short sections, and 2) to improve his support of the dancers.

 

I think Kimber and Kirkpatrick were/are able to modify their playing to fit the occasion.  I don't think anyone said either of these guys were boring or undanceable.

That was my point.

 

However, if they were doing a morris tune as a performance piece it may be beautiful yet undanceable.  That wouldn't be wrong, just different.

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That's possible, but it's hypothetical. What's your judgment of the Morris tunes on their recordings? I claim that they can be both be beautiful and danceable.

[JimLucas]

William Kimber's approach...

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A beautiful summary, Dan!

 

And it tells me that I really should go back and listen more closely to WK's playing.

[Brian Peters]

William Kimber's approach when chords got difficult....for him, not very often!...was to go with some simple octave notes.

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Note this is not an oom-pah kind of playing; he didn't seem to be as influenced by melodeon players as many are today. Moreover, he didn't usually play full chords, except at the beginning or end of a phrase. (snip)

(snip)

By the way, Kimber didn't particularly care that the chord fragments he created fitted within the straightjacket of the three chord trick. Thus, adding these up-or-down thirds occasionally puts some minor key feel into the music. I like that feel, but some wouldn't, especially when playing with others who adhere more strictly to the three chord trick style of accompaniment (melodeon, for example).

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Dan, I suspect that you have spent longer analysing Kimber than I have, but I did do a workshop on his style a couple of years ago, and one of the things that struck me was that when playing a melody on the upper part of the C row, he would switch to the G row and play it on the pull. On the left hand he could then substitute an A minor chord (pull buttons 3,4&5 on G row) for the more conventional C chord, and have a ready-made G chord by holding the same buttons on the push. This is one of the reasons his harmony sounds, well, Kimber-esque. He would also sometimes play his pushed C chord with a root note of G, which sounds quite distinctive, too. And you're quite right that he didn't do too much oom-pah.

 

As far a octave-playing is concerned, listen to John Kirkpatrick playing the early bars of "Glorishears" on "Plain Capers". A lovely arrangement, and one which I spent some time trying to copy around twenty-five years ago.

Brian

[Brian Peters]

I promise I will work harder at my chords Brian.

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Good on you, Geoff. A floor performer at an English folk club once got up to play shortly before I was due on stage. She accompanied her singing with an anglo, and said by way of an intro: "I'm able to perform here tonight because of an invaluable piece of advice Brian Peters gave me in a workshop." When I questioned her afterwards about precisely which gem of technical expertise I had had offered, that had proved so valuable, she replied: "you said I had to work bloody hard at it." Not quite what I'd been expecting, but with hindsight probably the most useful tip for anyone wanting to get good at this or any instrument.

Brian

[Paul Read]

I think you're right, but that's because your response seemed a non sequitur, addressing musical practice precisely the opposite of what Jim B. was asking about.

 

I've re-read the original question and my response and I think I did address Jim's question. as for the rest, I'm going to avoid the "Goram Trap" and not get into sentence analysis.

 

Jim B, I think we're all in agreement here that there is a place for playing octaves.

[Jim Besser]

Yep.  If your son/daughter is interested in the morris, there are a number of options around here.

 

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She has periodically exprssed interest in learning Morris. Her mother is a Cotswold and rapper dancer, I play 2 sides. she might be interested in a mixed side of youngish folks, willing to work with newcomers.

[Jim Besser]

As far a octave-playing is concerned, listen to John Kirkpatrick playing the early bars of "Glorishears" on "Plain Capers".  A lovely arrangement, and one which I spent some time trying to copy around twenty-five years ago.

 

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Yes, that's one of the recordings that got me thinking about this; he really uses the little section of octave playing to punch up the opening.

[Jim Besser]

Jim B, I think we're all in agreement here that there is a place for playing octaves.

 

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Altogether a helpful and interesting discussion.

[Jim Besser]

Update: so I tried some octave passages at a Morris event yesterday. Did the first two bars of the B part of Cuckoo's Nest, which I play in Dm. That section has resisted my best efforts to add chords .

 

It seemed to add some punch in a very noisy environment where all the musicians were having a hard time being heard. The dancers seemed happy. I count the experiment a success.

 

I was set to open another tune, Orange in Bloom, by playing the extra A all in octaves, but we didn't get to it when we were playing in the park for other dancers, and I didn't want to risk it in a performance..

[David Barnert]

Did the first two bars of the B part of Cuckoo's Nest, which I play in Dm.  That section has resisted my best efforts to add chords.

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"Cuckoo's Nest" is one of those tunes that exist in dozens of versions, some in major, some in minor. For Morris Dancing, I play it in A minor (actually A dorian, as the F's are sharp). Here it is as I play it, with the chords. I've transposed the whole thing to D dorian (like D minor, but with B naturals).

 

Edited to add: I don't know how many of these chords are available on your Anglo, Jim.

 

Edited October 3, 2005 by David Barnert

[Jim Besser]

"Cuckoo's Nest" is one of those tunes that exist in dozens of versions, some in major, some in minor. For Morris Dancing, I play it in A minor (actually A dorian, as the F's are sharp). Here it is as I play it, with the chords. I've transposed the whole thing to D dorian (like D minor, but with B naturals).

 

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Duh...I keep getting confused by the idea of modes.

 

I play a very similar version, same key.

I also hear musos playing it with the first Cs in the B part sharped.

[David Barnert]

Don't worry about modes. They pretty much take care of themselves. But the question is, though: Do (or can) my chords work for you?

 

(Edited to close the parentheses.

 

Edited October 4, 2005 by David Barnert

[geoffwright]

To further baffle Jim, working from D upwards, the modes have the intervals

Dorian - T S T T T S T

Phrygian - S T T T S T T

Lydian - T T T S T T S

Mixolydian - T T S T T S T

Aeolian - T S T T S T T

 

with the "theoretical" modes

Ionian - T T S T T T S

Locrian - S T T S T T T (first and fifth notes are not perfect fifths)

 

I was taught these with the mnemonic DiPLoMA. Has anyone heard a better mnemonic?

[Jim Besser]

Don't worry about modes. They pretty much take care of themselves. But the question is, though: Do (or can) my chords work for you?

 

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I can play modes, I just can't identify them!

The chords are interesting; it gives a very different sound than the way I play.

I'm going to fool with it.

 

I should record my version and see what you think.

[David Barnert]

I should record my version and see what you think.

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Eager to hear it. Maybe I'll record mine for you, too.