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Aldon Sanders

Hayden duet that favors flat keys?

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so this is sort of an esoteric question, but is there a lesser buttoned Hayden duet that favors the flat keys?

 

I ask because I'd like to play along with the church orchestra.  I'm the conductor of the orchestra. We play orchestrated hymns and the number of musicians has decreased in the last couple of years mostly do to old age, members growing up, members moving to different locations, and deaths. 

 

At the moment I  use my Wheatstone English to play the intros to hymns by reading the soprano & alto harmonies and occasionally adding the tenor or bass notes, but would like play full hymns on the Hayden duet.

 

All of the Hayden duets that I've seen on the internet that don't have the full button layout seem to favor the sharp keys.  The orchestrated hymns we play on the other hand favor the flat keys. The keys of C, D, G, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, & Db are quite common, while the keys of A, E, B, F# (& Gb) are nonexistent.

 

Is there a lesser buttoned Hayden out there that starts with Ab as the lowest note on both sides instead of Bb or C and leaves out the the extra sharps on the end of the rows?

 

I suspect that the answer is no and that I'll have to get a 'full' Hayden to do what I want, but that would be a waste of buttons for me and add extra size, & weight.

 

The biggest limiting factor for me is that I'm not rich and can't afford the full button instruments.

 

Thank you for any insights you can give me. Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way?

 

Aldon

Edited by Aldon Sanders
clarity

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Posted (edited)

Even a 65-button Hayden will not give you Eb as an Easy-Peasy key, never mind Ab and Db, see:

Wicki65.gif

 

You could ask Alex Holden about building a flat key Hayden or have a look at Crane concertinas.

 

A Morse Beaumont will give you Bb:

beaumont-notechart.png

 

 

Edited by Don Taylor
Corrected error to remove Eb as a playable key.
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Thank you Don.

 

If I had the funds I would definitely go for a custom made instrument. 

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Posted (edited)

My suggestion for a solution depends on the structure of the inside of a Stagi Hayden concertina, which I have never seen, but perhaps someone might put a picture of these on this website.  It assumes that the accordion style reed plates are mounted on accordion style reed blocks.

1) Obtain a second-hand 46 button Stagi Hayden concertina.

2) Starting with the lowest pitch reeds, take out the reed plates one row at a time and prepare to replace them two spaces along the row. 

3) Lengthen the tone chambers to fit  the reed plate that is two whole tones lower in pitch. You should end up with a row with two empty spaces at the bottom and a pair of reed plates left over.

4) Repeat this for for the next highest run of notes

5) On the third run of notes use the two left over reed plates from the first run, to fit into the first two tone chambers, moving the other reed plates along as before. 

6) Repeat (5) on the fourth row of each side and the fifth row of the right hand side.

7) Buy the extra 8 missing reed plates (i.e. the Abs, Bbs, Dbs & Ebs ). These shouldn't be too expensive if you buy second hand from an accordion repairer. Fit these as before.

 

😎 You will also have to touch up the tuning, as the pitch of reeds may change a bit when they are moved around. This will now be a Hayden concertina in Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F & C.

 

Inventor.

 

 

 

Edited by inventor
left out a word
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I see where Brian is coming from here, but what he is suggesting might be a bit daunting for some!

 

But it might be worth asking Wim Wakker at Concertina Connections if he would do essentially the same thing for you but with one of his Peacock Haydens or one of his (not yet available) Troubador Haydens.

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Posted (edited)

That's a really good idea, Don.

 

I am currently waiting for a new Busker EC from him, so it may be a while before I can work up the funds.

 

Thanks for the clue.

 

And Inventor, thank you for chiming in with your suggestion. The fact that you didn't mention a model that favors flat keys means that what I want doesn't exist. Thank you for inventing, improving & promoting the Hayden system. I currently own an Elise and love how intuitive the system is.

 

Aldon

Edited by Aldon Sanders
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Posted (edited)

Aldon

 

Since you already have an Elise you might want to consider Brian's modification on that box.  Wim already sells a set of better quality replacement reeds for the Elise:

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/replacement reeds.htm

and he has an online guide on how to do the job:

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/reed exchange instructions.htm

 

Maybe Wim could get you the extra reeds you need to make a flat Hayden, he probably has a used Elise that he might be prepared to convert for you.

 

You would need to check that the Elise has enough buttons to give you all of the keys that you need.

 

Added: I think that you can flatten an Elise so that it will play Ab, Bb, Db and Eb as easy keys but just those four keys (instead of C, D, F and G on a standard Elise).

 

Edited by Don Taylor
Added to comment on Elise's available keys.
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Posted (edited)

With a normal Hayden layout that includes Bb and Eb on the left of the layout, it sounds like you basically want the same thing tuned down a whole step (thus a "Bb instrument", like a trumpet or clarinet, except that it can play many notes at a time).

 

Building a new instrument that way (rather than modifying one already built) shouldn't really be more difficult than the usual.  (The Elise may be an exception, but it sounds like you want/need something more advanced, anyway.)  I suggest you check with the various makers and see what they say.

Edited by JimLucas
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2 hours ago, JimLucas said:

With a normal Hayden layout that includes Bb and Eb on the left of the layout

A normal 46 button Hayden does not have Eb on the left so neither Bb nor Eb is one of the easy keys.

 

Aldon wants Ab and Db as well so the shift would have to be two whole notes down.

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On 5/21/2019 at 1:22 AM, Don Taylor said:

A normal 46 button Hayden does not have Eb on the left so neither Bb nor Eb is one of the easy keys.

 

Aldon wants Ab and Db as well so the shift would have to be two whole notes down.

 

If he's confining himself to a 46-button layout, as in your diagram, I agree.

 

On the other hand, the 52-button Beaumont diagram would only have to be dropped one whole note to include both Ab and Db, and the additional 6 buttons/notes would have other advantages, too.  That would, I hope, not require changing dimensions of either chambers or reeds (except for the reed thickness profile when tuning).

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On 5/18/2019 at 7:06 AM, Aldon Sanders said:

Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way?

 

Aldon

 

Well, if you were playing just on your own the obvious answer would be to transpose up or down a semitone to a playable key. (E.g. change Db to either C or D). But would this be too difficult for the rest of the orchestra?

 

LJ

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inventor had wondered about the interior of the Stagi Hayden and I'm happy to help.  Here's what mine looks like.

stagi.jpg

stagi-2.jpg

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