Old Anglo On Ebay

[grumpyhermit]

Who said, "[Most] men know the price of everything and the value of nothing?"

 

On to subjects of general agreement! As Chris and others have noted, ebay auctions occur in something of an information blackout, so the bids are somewhat like lottery tickets and can be expected to reach the level of wholesale prices at best. I'm amazed at the amounts gambled on these as-is concertinas. As Wes implies in another thread, an unrestored instrument will frequently sell for much more than (a restored instrument) minus (the cost of restoration). If you think about it, it's very interesting.

 

Paul

That was Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic, by the way.

 

 

In these days when it is still possible to find a copy of the Declaration of Independence on the back of a common picture, and the show Antiques Roadshow shows incredible finds every week, why should we find it amazing that people gamble on the chance of finding something really great?

 

Bob

[Paul Groff]

Bless your heart, Mr. Hermit; I have been trying to find the correct quote and its author for a few weeks now. Can I say that I don't mean to accuse anyone here of cynicism or even materialism;

after all we have turned our backs on what society begs us to value and devoted ourselves to the concertina. Speaking of values, I value everyone who loves concertinas and the tradition they represent.

 

Paul

[Samantha]

... after all we have turned our backs on what society begs us to value and devoted ourselves to the concertina.  Speaking of values, I value everyone who loves concertinas and the tradition they represent.

 

Paul

I think that's a wonderful sentiment and one which I endorse wholeheartedly!

Samantha

[caj]

On a slightly different note, I've always been intrigued or annoyed by the fact that many of these 32-button boxen have the left-side extra button right where I'd want one, and the right-side extra button in the last place I'd want one.

 

Caj

[JimLucas]

In these days when it is still possible to find a copy of the Declaration of Independence on the back of a common picture, and the show Antiques Roadshow shows incredible finds every week, why should we find it amazing that people gamble on the chance of finding something really great?

I don't find it amazing, but I do find it unwise. Incredible finds occur when someone notices or discovers what others have not. That's not likely to happen with 10 million others able to view the same item (and maybe a few hundred actually doing so, if it's a concertina). And if there's something worth noticing, you can bet that an expert will notice it if an amateur does. Otherwise, you're just betting that there will be something of extra value that isn't "visible", and that -- as Paul said -- is more like playing the lottery.

 

And I'm frequently reminded of that song I heard Dave Bromberg sing: "A man should never gamble more than he can *stand* to lose."

[JimLucas]

Think of all the classic antique furniture which was cleaned and altered into something desirable ca. 1900 (this was a good economic decision at that time), but whose monetary value is much less today than if it had been "conserved" or at least truly "restored," rather than reworked.

Well, yes, but I wonder if our adoration of "original" could be the anomaly, which over time (centuries, or even millenia) might be be as viewed strange and foolish more than otherwise.

[grumpyhermit]

In these days when it is still possible to find a copy of the Declaration of Independence on the back of a common picture, and the show Antiques Roadshow shows incredible finds every week, why should we find it amazing that people gamble on the chance of finding something really great?

I don't find it amazing, but I do find it unwise. Incredible finds occur when someone notices or discovers what others have not. That's not likely to happen with 10 million others able to view the same item (and maybe a few hundred actually doing so, if it's a concertina). And if there's something worth noticing, you can bet that an expert will notice it if an amateur does. Otherwise, you're just betting that there will be something of extra value that isn't "visible", and that -- as Paul said -- is more like playing the lottery.

 

And I'm frequently reminded of that song I heard Dave Bromberg sing: "A man should never gamble more than he can *stand* to lose."

It's easy enough for someone who already owns that treasured Wheatstone, Dipper or Lachenal to talk about the hazards of gambling on Ebay. For those of us that do not own those wonderful instruments, it offers the same solace that a lottery does to the slum-dweller, with a much greater chance of winning. For the person who loves the sound of a concertina and desires to take up the instrument, it is discouraging to constantly hear: (a.) that anything affordable is a piece of junk, with no resale value, and not even in tune as it leaves the factory. (b.) that to acquire a quality instrument requires a minimum investment of two thousand US dollars, and a waiting list period of not days, nor months, but years; and (c.) leave the Ebay instruments alone, little boy, those are for experts to deal with, if you buy one it'll be full of worms, and serve you right. Is it any wonder that the instrument is unpopular, with advocates like these?

 

Bob

[Chris Timson]

For the person who loves the sound of a concertina and desires to take up the instrument, it is discouraging to constantly hear: (a.) that anything affordable is a piece of junk, with no resale value, and not even in tune as it leaves the factory. (b.) that to acquire a quality instrument requires a minimum investment of two thousand US dollars, and a waiting list period of not days, nor months, but years; and (c.) leave the Ebay instruments alone, little boy, those are for experts to deal with, if you buy one it'll be full of worms, and serve you right.  Is it any wonder that the instrument is unpopular, with advocates like these?

Well, if you've heard that from me, then either a) you've not been listening or my command of English is worse than I thought. I don't believe any of that.

 

But I am not going to encourage people into a gamble where someone with not much dosh pays, I don't know, $3-400 for something that might look good in a pub curio cabinet but which is otherwise unplayable rubbish. What's that going to do for their fledgling love of the concertina?

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Bob ("grumpyhermit", who really does sound grumpy this time ) said:

It's easy enough for someone who already owns that treasured Wheatstone, Dipper or Lachenal to talk about the hazards of gambling on Ebay. For those of us that do not own those wonderful instruments, it offers the same solace that a lottery does to the slum-dweller, with a much greater chance of winning.

 

How often do you pay more than $100 for a lottery ticket. I know some people do that over time, but at one go? Do that 10 times and you could have bought yourself a decent instrument, with a warranty.

 

What I'm saying -- and I believe Chris and Paul are, too -- is that 1) if you have an unplayable instrument, then you have an unplayable instrument, and 2) if the total cost of what you paid on eBay and what it takes to get it restored (something which also has a wait time, whether it's done by a professional or by yourself) is greater than the price of something already in good playing condition (from, e.g., the Button Box, Concertina Connection, Barleycorn, or some other established dealer of good reputation), then you have *not* won "the lottery".

 

For the person who loves the sound of a concertina and desires to take up the instrument, it is discouraging to constantly hear: (a.) that anything affordable is a piece of junk, with no resale value, and not even in tune as it leaves the factory.

 

Even I, who am no great fan of Stagis, have not gone so far as to say that!

 

(There are those who have reported the not-in-tune problem as a fact, but they are dealers who put them into proper tune before they sell them, so that's hardly a reason to not buy one.)

 

... (b.) that to acquire a quality instrument requires a minimum investment of two thousand US dollars, and a waiting list period of not days, nor months, but years;...

 

Something else *I* never said, nor anyone else that I can recall, unless you're talking about Hayden duets. But I've never seen one of those on eBay, and you can bet that if a Wheatstone or Dipper one ever did appear, it would *not* be a low-priced "gamble".

 

All the "mid-range" instruments I've tried have been of fine quality, very playable, available in less than "years", *and* priced below $2000. I own a Ceili, which is as well-used as my fully-restored Jeffries. And Stagis bought from reliable dealers are for many -- if not everyone -- better than nothing. Their resale value can decline rapidly (so does that of a new car or computer), but if a person is willing to throw away ("gamble") a couple of hundred dollars on a potential eBay mistake, they should also be willing to take a similar loss on reselling a Stagi.

 

And for would-be English players there's now the "Jackie", from Concertina Connection, at under $300. Given Wim Wakker's dedication to teaching the concertina, I expect that it is of adquate quality for a beginner, and I'll soon be able to report from first hand experience.

 

But even Lachenals and Wheatstones in proper playable condition can be had from dealers like Barleycorn for prices under $2000 US. #2559171047 on eBay right now is a Barleycorn offering, but Chris doesn't sell such items only on eBay.

 

...and (c.) leave the Ebay instruments alone, little boy, those are for experts to deal with, if you buy one it'll be full of worms, and serve you right.

 

Bob, have *you* ever personally bought a concertina on eBay?

 

Let me just say that if you "win" an instrument that the experts were unwilling to bid on, your chances of getting something that is not as playable as a new mid-range concrtina are fairly high. There are some decent, playable instruments on eBay, but more that are not. If you want to do some bidding, you should know what you're doing. *Become* an expert, first. (Most dealers are experts, but there are many more experts who are not dealers.)

 

And if you manage to outbid the experts by more than a few dollars, you will probably have paid too much. Actually, if you *just* edge out the experts, then you're likely getting a good deal... but not an exceptional one. But you can't know at the time you bid that that will be the case. They have to factor in their profit. On the other hand, they often do their own restoration, so they don't have to pay retail prices for that, and they have the speed and competence that comes with experience.

 

Of course, if your goal is to have an instrument on which to learn/practice your restoration skills -- or if you just enjoy gambling, -- that's another matter. But I don't think that's what Bob was talking about.

 

The fact is that if what you really want is a good, playable instrument at a bargain price, and not just a *chance* of getting a playable instrument at any price, then eBay is not the place to go. Go to a reputable dealer. Or if you really enjoy bargain hunting, haunt the flea markets. Your chance of finding something decent (or even at all) may be small, but your chance of getting a bargain -- assuming you're capable of judging quality -- is much higher, because 1) you can examine the instrument first hand and 2) you won't have the rest of us competing with you.

 

Is it any wonder that the instrument is unpopular, with advocates like these?

 

*Is* the instrument *unpopular*? Rare, yes, but unpopular? Stradivariuses and Ferraris are also rare, but hardly unpopular! The "usual" price of those is also out of the reach of most of us. That's just the way it is.

 

[Eiditing was just to relabel my list with numbers, to remove the smiley that resulted from using b-with-paren.]

Edited September 21, 2003 by JimLucas

[Paul Groff]

Jim and Chris

 

Believe it or not I think there is great wisdom in everything you have said in response to Mr. Hermit, and could not have said it better.

 

Mr. Hermit (Evans?),

 

Mea culpa, for *I* will admit to having said some of those things to potential buyers. But let me defend myself.

 

Of course a beginner can start with any instrument and if he or she is dedicated, a bad instrument should be no obstacle to progress. Eventually a serious player will want a good one, and a good concertina (even a great concertina) is nowhere near as expensive as the cheapest new car, so (for the forseeable future) should be affordable to most working people who care enough about the instrument to make a sacrifice to obtain one. Before you blast people with nice concertinas, keep in mind that unlike many of you, I don't own a house or car, even though with a new baby I may have to reorganize my priorities.

 

But what should I tell people who come to me for advice? If they are going to stick with the concertina, buying the cheapest new ones or the poor condition old ones is a very bad investment decision, while many of those who paid top dollar for Jeffries, Dippers, etc. years ago could now double, triple or ? their investment if you could pry that instrument away from them. In the big picture, the advice to get the best instrument you can possibly afford has been very accurate and generous advice to give my customers. It would actually be better for me as a player and purchaser of concertinas, who intends to stay with the instrument, to advise them to buy the cheaper stuff that doesn't appreciate as much, or in fact depreciates.

 

I don't see a lot of people trying to learn to drive in the kind of car you can get for free, for $50, or even for $500. Of course, some do learn in them and I have owned (only) cars like that. They don't work as well, they will impede your learning process, and in the long run they may well cost you much more than a car you buy for $2000 to $5000. Believe it or not, a lot of ingenuity and careful work goes into making a good concertina, that may make a wonderful sound comparable in volume to a piano yet is the size of a toaster - with no electricity! If you complain that the good new ones (whether accordion-reeded or traditional) are too expensive you are trying to take bread out of the mouths of the makers, all very generous and dedicated craftsmen. Due to supply and demand, the old ones used to be (& sometimes still can be) amazing bargains, but if your interest in the instrument is in finding something to play that's way cheaper second-hand than it would cost to make, used piano accordions are now the way to go. (Make sure it doesn't need an overhaul!)

 

So - if you can't afford a good concertina, I want you to play whatever concertina you can afford. But I don't want you coming back to me in 2 years complaining that I advised you to make a bad investment of $200, 300, 500...still a lot of money to me or anyone.

 

If you ever meet one of my students you will find that I bust my rear trying to get them the most reliable and playable instrument possible so that it doesn't let them down during thousands of hours of hard practicing. New bellows, riveted actions, good reeds and good tuning, - and a tone that you enjoy listening to -- seem to make a big difference and don't come cheaply, even when added to antique instruments that were bought wholesale. For this reason, I really commend the new makers of very playable accordion-reeded instruments. However, some players (even beginners) prefer a different tone.

 

My comment that auction buying behavior is "interesting to think about" should not be misunderstood. I mean not necessarily that it is irrational (though it may be!). You have provided some very fair reasons you might want to bid high on an unrestored instrument. Some others: A buyer might want an instrument that is still in its original pitch, and put a premium on this; a buyer might want to restore the instrument to a HIGHER STANDARD than is typically done by some dealers (if you know you want new bellows, patches are a waste of money; if you want riveted action in a Lachenal, no need to buy one that has already been repadded, etc.); a buyer might want the instrument as an unrestored piece of history; a buyer may enjoy the restoration hobby and not be calculating every cent of the bottom line... This was my point -- same instrument, different values to different potential owners.

 

Let me apologize publicly to anyone I have (unintentionally) discouraged from playing by warning them that good concertinas are more expensive than playable guitars, flutes, etc. I can only hope the many students and customers I have encouraged and supported will tip the balance. I expect a lot from them, and think some will have much more to offer the concertina world than I have done.

 

Paul

Edited September 21, 2003 by Paul Groff