Short valves

[Don Taylor]

Here is a picture of one of the reed pan on my Lachenal Excelsior.

 

Reed pan with some short valves

 

Two reeds have no valves (A4 and C4) which I understand is normal, but three of the other valves are a bit shorter than the slot that they cover and I wonder if this too is normal or if I should replace them with longer valves.

 

Thx. Don.

[Theo]

Do the play well? If so leave as they are.

[ttonon]

Don, sometimes there’s a conflicting resonance between high pitched reeds and their associated air chambers, and such conflict chokes the reed, preventing it from speaking. A slight air leak in the chamber will destroy this resonance, and the small gap provided by the short valve may serve this purpose, because the leak will occur when you try playing the other reed in the chamber. But of course, none of this may apply to your case, and so it would be an interesting experiment for you to re-seat the valve, assuming it is long enough, and see if the other reed in that chamber chokes when you try to play it.

 

Best regards,

Tom

www.bluesbox.biz

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Don, sometimes there's a conflicting resonance between high pitched reeds and their associated air chambers, and such conflict chokes the reed, preventing it from speaking. A slight air leak in the chamber will destroy this resonance, and the small gap provided by the short valve may serve this purpose, because the leak will occur when you try playing the other reed in the chamber. But of course, none of this may apply to your case, and so it would be an interesting experiment for you to re-seat the valve, assuming it is long enough, and see if the other reed in that chamber chokes when you try to play it.

 

Best regards,

Tom

www.bluesbox.biz

 

If it is playing well, I agree with Theo, leave well alone. It is wise not to experiment unless there is an actual problem.

 

Geoffrey

[ttonon]

It is wise not to experiment unless there is an actual problem.

 

Geoffry, is that always the case, or might it depend upon your objectives?

 

Tom

[david robertson]

Do the play well? If so leave as they are.

Agreed in principle, but I have often found that the highest reeds on a Wheatstone treble, for example, where short valves are normally used, actually play better without valves at all. As everyone seems to be saying, just go for whatever produces the best result.

[Theo]

Do the play well? If so leave as they are.

Agreed in principle, but I have often found that the highest reeds on a Wheatstone treble, for example, where short valves are normally used, actually play better without valves at all. As everyone seems to be saying, just go for whatever produces the best result.

 

I've found the same David, and I expect you have also come across plenty where valves have been fitted to the highest reeds, which impeded their playing. The thought behind my response was that you are better to leave well alone unless you want to get into some trial and error and experimentation, which seemed not to be the motivation of the original question.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Trouble editing post ????

 

I'll try again.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2012 by Geoffrey Crabb

[Geoffrey Crabb]

It is wise not to experiment unless there is an actual problem.

 

Geoffry, is that always the case, or might it depend upon your objectives?

 

Tom

 

Second attempt - Hopeful

 

 

Tom

my comment referred to this particular topic. It is evident from the picture that the original valves have been replaced and one hopes that they have been selected to match the characteristics and faithfully positioned as per the originals. Those originals would have been fitted by the 'finisher' to give the best overall response etc. dependant on the limitations of the instrument. I believe that if Don is not having a problem i.e. is happy with the instrument then there is no justification in experimenting just for interest.

 

There may be many objectives of course. Some people are obviously more interested in concertina history, design, construction, repair, improvement or just theorising. That is fine, providing, that interest does not unnecessarily influence others away from their main aim of actually playing a musical instrument and thus, I hope, promoting ongoing recognition of the concertina.

 

Off topic a bit but I think relevant to your question:

Whilst it is beneficial for a player to be able to carry out simple repairs or adjustments to their own instrument when a minor problem occurs, it is important that they are aware of their own abilities in considering whether to attempt more major things themselves or entrust the work to a recognised or recommended experienced repairer. There is nothing more frustrating or embarrassing than having to eventually present ones own failed efforts, no matter what the commodity, to a repairer for rectification. (I think we have all done it). And of course, a professionals charge for rectification will invariably be more than if engaged to address the original problem.

 

In giving advice one must respect the abilities and circumstances of an enquirer. It has been stated, by some, that tuning and adjusting reeds is easy, but I would say, as someone with a modicum of experience, that the only thing that is 'easy', I am sorry to say, is ruining them.

Geoffrey

[Rod]

It is wise not to experiment unless there is an actual problem.

 

Geoffry, is that always the case, or might it depend upon your objectives?

 

Tom

 

Second attempt - Hopeful

 

 

Tom

my comment referred to this particular topic. It is evident from the picture that the original valves have been replaced and one hopes that they have been selected to match the characteristics and faithfully positioned as per the originals. Those originals would have been fitted by the 'finisher' to give the best overall response etc. dependant on the limitations of the instrument. I believe that if Don is not having a problem i.e. is happy with the instrument then there is no justification in experimenting just for interest.

 

There may be many objectives of course. Some people are obviously more interested in concertina history, design, construction, repair, improvement or just theorising. That is fine, providing, that interest does not unnecessarily influence others away from their main aim of actually playing a musical instrument and thus, I hope, promoting ongoing recognition of the concertina.

 

Off topic a bit but I think relevant to your question:

Whilst it is beneficial for a player to be able to carry out simple repairs or adjustments to their own instrument when a minor problem occurs, it is important that they are aware of their own abilities in considering whether to attempt more major things themselves or entrust the work to a recognised or recommended experienced repairer. There is nothing more frustrating or embarrassing than having to eventually present ones own failed efforts, no matter what the commodity, to a repairer for rectification. (I think we have all done it). And of course, a professionals charge for rectification will invariably be more than if engaged to address the original problem.

 

In giving advice one must respect the abilities and circumstances of an enquirer. It has been stated, by some, that tuning and adjusting reeds is easy, but I would say, as someone with a modicum of experience, that the only thing that is 'easy', I am sorry to say, is ruining them.

Geoffrey

 

In over 33 years of play I have only ever detached the end plates of my Anglo, very occasionally and only when absolutely necessary, to enable me to replace a fractured or broken spring and I have at the same time taken the opportunity to apply a tiny smear of oil to all the pivot-joints and the springs which has, I believe, been beneficial and considerably extended the lives of the springs. Venture further at your peril !

[ttonon]

Hi Geoff,

 

I understand your concern for the average concertina user, who like the user of most other mechanical contraptions, is much less interested in understanding their functioning parts than he/she is in keeping the contraptions in a trouble-free, usable condition. I think you are also probably correct in assuming that the original poster is likewise adverse to experimentation, on the belief that the workings inside the box are far more complicated than anything he/she would ever want to deal with, with a risk for damage on top of it. I thus agree that your advice is entirely reasonable to the vast majority of situations conjured up in this forum, and in particular, to the original poster, with well deserves admonitions and caution.

 

But I also think you would agree that the forum here does contain a fringe element of people who are genuinely curious enough and willing to take on some risk and effort for experimentation, which often provides an essential path to understanding, in an area of personal interest. I’m sure you yourself would be in this fringe. And in truth, not knowing anything else about the original poster, I think there may be a small, though still unlikely, chance that he/she is also in this fringe. With such people in mind, I do think my comment starting with “It would be an interesting experiment…” does add something to the forum. What’s more, I’m sure you understand all this, and my question to you was more as a gentle chide, in representation of that fringe, where sometimes occurs very interesting activity and discussion, which I’m sure you would not want to discourage.

 

Best regards,

Tom

[Don Taylor]

Since you are talking about me, I do fall into Tom's latter category - a tinkerer or 'maker' in today's parlance. I long ago learned to not to trust but to verify anything done for me by a professional and I usually trust myself, or my wife, before anyone else. This is in the context of potential life-threatening situations, not just a musical instrument.

 

I have ordered enough spare valves to conduct the experiment, I don't know when I will get around to this as there are other problems that need to be addressed first - despite this new to me concertina having just recently been professionally restored. I will note that Lea's Excelsior does not have short valves whereas mine does so I don't think I can count on what is currently there being a good model on what was there originally, especially as some of the new valves have been 'bodged' to make them fit.

 

Reading Dave's excellent Maintenance Manual gives me enough confidence to do most repair tasks short of re-tuning. While concertinas are very impressive examples of the best Victorian mechanical engineering works, they were not designed or made by God so I think I can successfully accomplish basic maintenance and repair.

 

Don.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Tom

my comment referred to this particular topic. It is evident from the picture that the original valves have been replaced and one hopes that they have been selected to match the characteristics and faithfully positioned as per the originals. Those originals would have been fitted by the 'finisher' to give the best overall response etc. dependant on the limitations of the instrument. I believe that if Don is not having a problem i.e. is happy with the instrument then there is no justification in experimenting just for interest.

 

There may be many objectives of course. Some people are obviously more interested in concertina history, design, construction, repair, improvement or just theorising. That is fine, providing, that interest does not unnecessarily influence others away from their main aim of actually playing a musical instrument and thus, I hope, promoting ongoing recognition of the concertina.

 

Off topic a bit but I think relevant to your question:

Whilst it is beneficial for a player to be able to carry out simple repairs or adjustments to their own instrument when a minor problem occurs, it is important that they are aware of their own abilities in considering whether to attempt more major things themselves or entrust the work to a recognised or recommended experienced repairer. There is nothing more frustrating or embarrassing than having to eventually present ones own failed efforts, no matter what the commodity, to a repairer for rectification. (I think we have all done it). And of course, a professionals charge for rectification will invariably be more than if engaged to address the original problem.

 

In giving advice one must respect the abilities and circumstances of an enquirer. It has been stated, by some, that tuning and adjusting reeds is easy, but I would say, as someone with a modicum of experience, that the only thing that is 'easy', I am sorry to say, is ruining them.

Geoffrey

 

 

Hi Geoff,

 

I understand your concern for the average concertina user, who like the user of most other mechanical contraptions, is much less interested in understanding their functioning parts than he/she is in keeping the contraptions in a trouble-free, usable condition. I think you are also probably correct in assuming that the original poster is likewise on the belief that the workings inside the box are far more complicated than anything he/she would ever want to deal with, with a risk for damage on top of it. I thus agree that your advice is entirely reasonable to the vast majority of situations conjured up in this forum, and in particular, to the original poster, with well deserves admonitions and caution.

 

But I also think you would agree that the forum here does contain a fringe element of people who are genuinely curious enough and willing to take on some risk and effort for experimentation, which often provides an essential path to understanding, in an area of personal interest. I'm sure you yourself would be in this fringe. And in truth, not knowing anything else about the original poster, I think there may be a small, though still unlikely, chance that he/she is also in this fringe. With such people in mind, I do think my comment starting with "It would be an interesting experiment…" does add something to the forum. What's more, I'm sure you understand all this, and my question to you was more as a gentle chide, in representation of that fringe, where sometimes occurs very interesting activity and discussion, which I'm sure you would not want to discourage.

 

Best regards,

Tom

 

Tom,

I do not think that my previous reply to you (repeated above) indicates any assumption on my part about the original poster, as suggested in the first paragraph of your reply.

I have merely stated my belief, as hopefully held by many established repairers, that there is no justification to experiment if there is not a problem.

Probably better in a new posting but I did acknowledge the existence of the 'fringe', as you call it, and of course, it is up to the individual to do whatever they like with an instrument that they have purchased but I feel it is important to bring to attention , occasionally, the consequence of some actions.

 

Geoffrey

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Since you are talking about me, I do fall into Tom's latter category - a tinkerer or 'maker' in today's parlance. I long ago learned to not to trust but to verify anything done for me by a professional and I usually trust myself, or my wife, before anyone else. This is in the context of potential life-threatening situations, not just a musical instrument.

 

I have ordered enough spare valves to conduct the experiment, I don't know when I will get around to this as there are other problems that need to be addressed first - despite this new to me concertina having just recently been professionally restored. I will note that Lea's Excelsior does not have short valves whereas mine does so I don't think I can count on what is currently there being a good model on what was there originally, especially as some of the new valves have been 'bodged' to make them fit.

 

Reading Dave's excellent Maintenance Manual gives me enough confidence to do most repair tasks short of re-tuning. While concertinas are very impressive examples of the best Victorian mechanical engineering works, they were not designed or made by God so I think I can successfully accomplish basic maintenance and repair.

 

Don.

 

Hi Don,

apppologies for talking about you. Thank you for expanding on your interest. It is never my intention to assume the capabilties or intentions of an indvidual so I try to to write in general terms. You are, of course, entitled to do whatever you wish with your own property so happy and succesful 'tinkering'.

 

Concertinas may not have been designed or built by God but repairers and makers are sometimes expected to perform miracles.

 

Regards

 

Geoffrey

[d.elliott]

Since you are talking about me, I do fall into Tom's latter category - a tinkerer or 'maker' in today's parlance. I long ago learned to not to trust but to verify anything done for me by a professional and I usually trust myself, or my wife, before anyone else. This is in the context of potential life-threatening situations, not just a musical instrument.

 

I have ordered enough spare valves to conduct the experiment, I don't know when I will get around to this as there are other problems that need to be addressed first - despite this new to me concertina having just recently been professionally restored. I will note that Lea's Excelsior does not have short valves whereas mine does so I don't think I can count on what is currently there being a good model on what was there originally, especially as some of the new valves have been 'bodged' to make them fit.

 

Reading Dave's excellent Maintenance Manual gives me enough confidence to do most repair tasks short of re-tuning. While concertinas are very impressive examples of the best Victorian mechanical engineering works, they were not designed or made by God so I think I can successfully accomplish basic maintenance and repair.

 

Don.

 

Don,

 

well said, you should be able to do most of the common service jobs and usual rectifications, and in so doing gain enough experience and confidence to do more in depth work, or not, as you explore your personal boundaries in skill and facilities.

 

I personally do not subscribe to the 'experiment for the sake of it' philosophy, but valves are only bits of dead animal skin, they do vary one to another, and sometimes a brand new valve just won't work well; you replace it from the same batch and all is well. The shortening of valves, or their omission, is really all about airflow, and reed responsiveness. A valve can choke a reed by preventing enough air passing over the reed tongue to excite it. If this is the case you remove the valve, but if the air loss across the 'missing valve' is too great, then fit a short valve, or a softer valve. It is part of an almost iterative process that certainly I carry out as second nature. Whilst iterative process are trial and error they are hardly experimentation likely to cause damage to the instrument or indeed to develop the 'ken of man' very much.

 

This whole thread is about a practical issue which has been addressed over the years by practical people to overcome a practical problem. In the same way valves are often trimmed, (not bodged) to ensure they clear the chamber side walls and don't catch the reed tongue. Reed assemblies are bushed with paper if the wood shrinks making the reed shoes loose in the reed pan housing, all simple practical solutions that work.

 

I do wonder what the old timer's would think about our modern day theorising, of our attempts to reduce things to formulae, or complex rules - when they were able to make such beautiful instruments based of accumulated experience, craftsmanship and basic cause and effect reasoning. I know the world is no longer square but some times I think we (especially technically qualified people like me) tend turn up the bench light and reach for the magnifying glass too quickly thus blinding ourselves to the simple and often obvious.

 

As to being a Tinker- I always saw them are the forerunners of the contracting maintenance engineers: one of those who travelled about mending things, pots pans and other utensils, often with a minimum of resources but equipped with a practical nature- just like Charlie Jeffries; this thought was how I chose my trade name of 'Concertina Tinker'. When I started repairing there were no reference books, courses or repair workshops available so C.J.seemed as good a person to relate to as any one. Hence Tinkers are good, well in my mind anyway so please join the ranks of the tinkers.

 

 

Cheers

Dave