Restoring "Top Period" Wheatstones

[cjmiller]

I've spent more time than I care to admit reading old threads, and I keep coming across the concept that the beginning of the 20th Century was the top period, the golden era, for Wheatstones. I have two questions that I can't find an answer to:

 

1. When does this "top period" roughly begin and end? I've seen WWI as the end, and I've seen it used for instruments from the late 1920's. Is there general agreement on a start and stop date (approx date to be sure)?

 

That's the easy question. Here's the more abstract one:

 

2. It seems to be a bit about the action Wheatstone used, but it's mostly about the quality of the reeds, and more specifically, the talent of the craftsmen who set them up and tuned those reeds. I can understand that, but how does a person keep that magic when the concertina is being re-tuned to modern pitch?

 

Someone asked about an H Boyd concertina last week, and it seems to be a question of Boyd ordering instruments by specific craftsmen, and then setting them up to his specs. As a result, everyone seems to agree that they have a unique sound. OK, but a century later, how does a person send an instrument like that off to be restored and be confident that the original magic won't be lost when the instrument is restored and re-tuned?

 

Once it's on the restorer's workbench, isn't that restorer going to use his ear to make it sound the way HE thinks it should sound? How does Mr. Wakker restore and re-tune an instrument without making it sound like a Wakker, or Mr. Dipper making it sound like a Dipper? I don't mean to insult either of those gentlemen, or minimize their skills and talents. What I'm asking is how you can do something as major as a full restoration and re-tuning and still wind up with something the original craftsman would recognize as his creation? Doesn't it still come down to the ears and the brain of the last person to work on those reeds and (consciously or unconsciously) what sounds "right" to them?

 

Again, I'm not trying to be negative, or imply that today's craftsmen are any less skilled than those of a century ago. I'm just trying to identify the "It" that makes a vintage Wheatstone special and how one keeps that special sound when you're rather seriously changing the reeds by tuning them to modern pitch and generally restoring an instrument, without turning it into the story of My Grandfather's Axe-- It's had 4 new handles and 2 new heads, but it's still my Grandfather's Axe.

 

Am I over-thinking this? Should I just go take a walk and clear my head?

[Dirge]

This is how I see it.

 

The twenties were the best period. But I can cope with 1900 to 1930ish as a concept. I've always assumed it's about quantities; by then they were making lots; it was practical to produce the various variations without cutting corners. Also they'd got a good pool of well practiced tradesmen and they'd been developing the instrument for half a century or so. I also don't think the start point of 'the best period' is clear; it's a gradual evolution to the peak.

 

However after 1930 or so there was the slump then the instrument dropped out of fashion. Sales undoubtedly crashed; corners were cut; you have to be more careful with what you get offered, we are told. (I've no personal experience) I don't take this to mean 'Don't buy a newer instrument' though because by now you would want to try any instrument anyway. Chris Algar always talks about golden period in his ads. As an awful lot of concertinas were made in this period it's a good sales line he can add on, but it's a wide bracket in numbers terms

 

 

I don't think a modern fettler can do much to change the fundamental tone and overall balance because that's the build of the thing, but you are absolutely right; being from 'the golden period' is damn all use if it's been set up by someone whose skills don't match the original makers. And concertinas get brought back from beyond the brink quite regularly. But I do think you are over-thinking it. You have to play the instrument in front of you and trust your judgement. I wouldn't dismiss an instrument because it wasn't of a particular age.

 

I have no problem with this mind you; in my world it's self policing. I play Wheatstone duets, they only started making them about 1900 with the bulk in the 20's. Numbers dropped right off in the 30's and they changed the keyboard system for the worse anyway. Easy!

[JimLucas]

I don't think a modern fettler can do much to change the fundamental tone and overall balance....

Improvement is unlikely, but it's all too possible to degrade the tone and response of the reeds -- even if only slightly -- by "flattening" them during tuning. They were given definite profiles -- both variations in thickness along the length and slight bending (different for lower and higher reeds) -- which affect tone and response and which may be diminished by a tuner who only considers pitch when wielding a file.

 

And even during the best period, quality could vary from one instrument to the next. The setting of the reeds in custom high-end instruments was almost certainly given more attention than with basic models and those made in batches.

 

I agree that the only way to be sure of the current quality is to play the instrument. I would add that the only way to be really sure is to play several (or even many, if possible), so that you have a basis for comparison.

[michael sam wild]

Then there's the whole issue of equal temperament versus other temperaments and intonations! Discuss!

[Geoff Wooff]

Then there's the whole issue of equal temperament versus other temperaments and intonations! Discuss!

 

 

 

 

During the years that many of us would call the "top period" of production quality, encompassing the 1890's-1930's, the normal temperament used by Wheatstone was 'Equal' as stated in their catalogues.Therefore, Michael, I would suggest a discussion focused in that direction will bere little fruit for this topic.

 

Having been fortunate to own, restore and play many Wheatstone Englishes from the supposed "Top Period" I have formulated, for myself, the production years I prefer, or perhaps more simply those periods that I don't regard as being 'quite up to the mark'. However, I am sometimes supprised by individual instruments from my "dark years".

 

I'm begining to find that the same periods hold true for Wheatstones Duets.

 

Perhaps once or twice I have had an EC that was totally original and in perfect playing condition, other than needing to be re-pitched to the modern standard. One such was my only concertina for Ten years, played every day, played hard too, with the only physical change being the need for new straps.I sold it eventually and it was still as good as new.... it was from a good year.

 

Recognising a good one from a photograph or description, or a serial number, is always difficult.. then add to that the fact that any concertina that has just exited Grandma's attic will not have been played for 50-100 years and will certainly not be sounding its best even if it has just been 'overhaulled', serviced, 'restored'. We must also not forget that we are often asking a lot from our 80 - 120 year old instruments.

 

So the advice given by others here that you will have to play an instrument, or many instruments, to make your choices, is something I heartily agree with.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[JimLucas]

Then there's the whole issue of equal temperament versus other temperaments and intonations! Discuss!

No thanks, at least not here.

"The whole issue" has already been discussed in considerable depth in prior threads.

[Don Taylor]

Then there's the whole issue of equal temperament versus other temperaments and intonations! Discuss!

No thanks, at least not here.

"The whole issue" has already been discussed in considerable depth in prior threads.

 

I hope that Jim accepts the following in the spirit intended, but I have seen a few threads killed with the "it has already been discussed" argument.

 

I think of forums like this as the virtual equivalent of going down to the pub for a chat with friends about a topic of mutual interest. If I were in a real pub and a newcomer came in and started a conversation that had been previously, perhaps exhaustively, discussed then I don't think that my first reaction would be to say "We talked about that 8 years ago and there is nothing more to be said." What I would do would be to either join in the conversation and maybe repeat the received wisdom for the newcomer, or wander off and join in on a different conversation. I might say, well you could read about it and provide a book (ie. a link) to read.

 

In this case, we actually have one of the "old lags" propose a discussion on a topic that I know nothing about, and unless I search through years of old postings I am never going to learn very much about alternate temperaments.

 

Please, if you are not interested in repeating an old topic, then just ignore it. Don't kill it for others who might want to learn something.

 

Respectfully,

 

Don.

[Geoff Wooff]

Then there's the whole issue of equal temperament versus other temperaments and intonations! Discuss!

No thanks, at least not here.

"The whole issue" has already been discussed in considerable depth in prior threads.

 

I hope that Jim accepts the following in the spirit intended, but I have seen a few threads killed with the "it has already been discussed" argument.

 

I think of forums like this as the virtual equivalent of going down to the pub for a chat with friends about a topic of mutual interest. If I were in a real pub and a newcomer came in and started a conversation that had been previously, perhaps exhaustively, discussed then I don't think that my first reaction would be to say "We talked about that 8 years ago and there is nothing more to be said." What I would do would be to either join in the conversation and maybe repeat the received wisdom for the newcomer, or wander off and join in on a different conversation. I might say, well you could read about it and provide a book (ie. a link) to read.

 

In this case, we actually have one of the "old lags" propose a discussion on a topic that I know nothing about, and unless I search through years of old postings I am never going to learn very much about alternate temperaments.

 

Please, if you are not interested in repeating an old topic, then just ignore it. Don't kill it for others who might want to learn something.

 

Respectfully,

 

Don.

 

 

 

Don,

If you wish a Temperaments topic then you ought to start one and I, for one, will try to help with any questions on that subject.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[JimLucas]

Then there's the whole issue of equal temperament versus other temperaments and intonations! Discuss!

No thanks, at least not here.

"The whole issue" has already been discussed in considerable depth in prior threads.

I hope that Jim accepts the following in the spirit intended, but I have seen a few threads killed with the "it has already been discussed" argument.

...

Please, if you are not interested in repeating an old topic, then just ignore it. Don't kill it for others who might want to learn something.

If you wish a Temperaments topic then you ought to start one and I, for one, will try to help with any questions on that subject.

Exactly, Geoff.

Apologies to Don that I wasn't clearer.

It's no excuse, really, but I was tired and rushed, and I left some things implied that I should have made explicit.

 

I have no objection to an ongoing discussion of temperaments, intonation, and the like, but to have it take place "here" under the title of Restoring "Top Period" Wheatstones is a great way to hide the information from future seekers, especially when the local Search engine is as poor as it is. (If I really want to find something here, I use Google's Advanced Search, restricting the search to the concertina.net domain.) Because I doubt that such hindrance is anyone's intent, I think it should be actively avoided.

 

Geoff's suggestion of starting a new Temperaments topic isn't a bad one, though I think it would be even better to revive and continue a prior one.

 

I think of forums like this as the virtual equivalent of going down to the pub for a chat with friends about a topic of mutual interest.

While there are similarities, there are also significant differences, and not just that here we have to provide our own pints.

 

In a pub, the content of previous discussions is simply not available for potential "off line" perusal. Here it is, and even without the potential for being corrupted interpreted, as is inevitable when a newcomer is given "background" so that they can join in an ongoing discussion. Also, there are massively more participants -- and newcomers -- here than in any conceivable pub conversation.

 

If I were in a real pub and a newcomer came in and started a conversation that had been previously, perhaps exhaustively, discussed then I don't think that my first reaction would be to say "We talked about that 8 years ago and there is nothing more to be said."

Nor would I; nor did I here.

Neither would I be inclined to try to repeat an entire previous discussion that might have consumed many hours over days, weeks, or months.

 

In this case, we actually have one of the "old lags" propose a discussion on a topic that I know nothing about...

Among the things you appear not to know about the topic is just how complex and even potentially controversial it is. When I said the subject had already been discussed "in considerable depth," I was implying that a great deal of effort would be needed to gain a reasonable understanding of it. Do you think it's reasonable to expect the previous posters to take considerable time away from other current pursuits to repeat what they've already said just for you... or each time a newer newcomer would like to learn about a topic?

 

...unless I search through years of old postings I am never going to learn very much about alternate temperaments.

You could always Google the subject, but I can help you with this link to an excellent post in a previous discussion. I recommend reading the entire thread. In fact, the second post mentions a couple of additional threads. Then if you have further questions, you could ask them in one of those threads, so that future inquirers won't have to search through even more threads for relevant information.