D/G or C/G tuning?

[Susanne]

Hi concertina peeps!

 

I've always thought that C/G is probably the best option since "everyone" else uses that, and that's what "everyone" says you should have if you want to play Irish music. But now when I was looking for a Morse concertina at the Music Room I noticed they also had D/G concertinas, and that got me thinking. A player I met in Ireland said he had D/G (is that the same tuning as G/D?) and that that tuning was better for Irish music. And thinking about it, most tunes are in D and G, so why not? And I very rarely play in C and find it annoying that I sort of naturally start playing in C when I pick up the concertina.

But I know that there are lots of much more knowledgable people here so I thought I'd ask for advice. I'm quite familiar with different melodeon tunings, but have no clue about concertinas, other than the C/G (Wheatstone layout I think).

 

What I want to be able to do with the concertina:

 

-Play Irish music

-Play English music

-Play Swedish music (not as important as the other two)

-Be able to play in D, G and related minor keys. Preferably be able to play in A and as many other keys as possible.

 

 

Is it possible to play in C if I want that? (I notice there are such buttons when I check the layout chart) Is it very inconvenient to play in C? Or is it about the same as playing in A on a C/G concertina?

Does the D/G (G/D) concertina have a very squeaky tone when you play in D? (I'm not fond of the G row on the C/G concertina)

 

What do you think? Advice and thoughts, please!

[Alex West]

Susi/Sinead

 

I'll let others comment on the suitablity of a G/D anglo for Irish music, except to say that most players or Irish music tend to play a C/G even for tunes in G, D and A by cross-rowing using a method such as Noel Hill's, playing chords only occasionally.

 

G/D concertinas tend to be more popular for English style tunes in G and D where heavy use of chords is the norm which may only be available by playing along the rows. I'm happy playing Irish tunes on a G/D, but I'm aware that I can't play with a similar technique and in a similar style to well known Irish musicians who play a C/G. That's inhibiting to me and I'm probably too fixed in my ways to change, but you may find that you get more support and learning opportunities if you have a "standard" box. (I'm ignoring here the Irish players who love playing a Bb/F or even an Ab/Eb)

 

A is a key which tends not to be used in English sessions but it's very common in Scottish sessions. I found it a pain at first, mainly because the tunes always seem to be on the "pull" so I ran out of air but I've gotten used to it.

 

It's certainly possible to play in C on a G/D box. You need to be comfortable finding the Fnatural on the left hand. It's like playing in F on a C/G box (and I seem to remember John Kirkpatrick saying he found F a really nice and very playable key on a C/G).

 

The G/D is normally a fourth lower than a C/G so you shouldn't find it squeaky at all. There are G/D boxes where the G row is the same as on a C/G and the D is lower, but these are unusual.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Alex West

[Susanne]

Thanks! You have a point there in finding support and learning opportunities, and that's an important reason for actually getting a C/G (plus that I've already started learning on a C/G). Same reason why I bought Photoshop for photo editing, there are no online tutors for the other software I use.

I already use cross-rowing a lot and I'm also used to cross-rowing from the melodeon. I've noticed though that most English (melodeon) players I know mainly play on one row, so maybe that tradition is the same on the concertina and that's why they prefer the G/D tuning? I just find it such a pain to sort of make the D scale what I play naturally when I pick up the concertina. Only a matter of practice, hours with the concertina, and blood, sweat and tears, I suppose.

[hjcjones]

Whilst Irish music is predominantly in the "fiddle keys" of D, G and A, the modern Irish style of concertina playing has developed on the C/G instrument (because the overwhelming majority of anglos were made in these keys). This style involves playing across the rows, which is less intuitive than playing up and down the rows. So if you want to play like Noel Hill, Edel Fox or the many other superb modern players most people would advise getting a C/G, and that seems to be the choice of most players who want to study Irish music. However there is an older style of playing up and down the rows, and playing a G/D would enable you play in this style in the common keys.

 

For playing English music, especially in the "English style" with the melody mainly on the right hand and chords on the left, many players are now choosing G/D instruments because they offer more options for chords and bass runs. However many continue to use C/G instruments, including players such as John Kirkpatrick and Brian Peters.

 

I don't know what would be best for Swedish tunes - I play a few Scandinavian tunes but make no pretence at being at all authentic! However Swedish fiddle music seems to invovle a lot of double-stopping and ringing strings, and I feel that playing in the home keys of the instrument would offer better options for imitating this, which would suggest a G/D if those are the keys you want to play in.

 

On either system, playing in A means crossing rows to find the notes outside the home keys.

 

I realise this doesn't really answer your question! It really depends on where your main musical interest lies. If you want to concentrate on Irish music then getting a C/G and learning the cross-rowing style would probably be your best choice, not least because there is a vast amount of learning material available covering this style. If your interests are broader, and especially if you want to play in G and D with full chord accompaniment, then a G/D might be a better choice, and you would still be able to play Irish tunes.

[SteveS]

I don't know what would be best for Swedish tunes - I play a few Scandinavian tunes but make no pretence at being at all authentic! However Swedish fiddle music seems to invovle a lot of double-stopping and ringing strings, and I feel that playing in the home keys of the instrument would offer better options for imitating this, which would suggest a G/D if those are the keys you want to play in.

Swedish music is in all sorts of keys and modes. Myself I play Swedish fiddle music (as close as I can get it (eg ornamentation and bowing) and I'm still working on the techniques) on an English TT which gives me full flexibility. However there are many places in Sweden with extant melodeon traditions (eg Ångermanland, Hälsingland, Jämtland) using melodeons that were in A and/or D - and even other keys.

Edited July 14, 2012 by SteveS

[Jody Kruskal]

Hi Susi,

 

I agree with the advice given above.

 

For me, it's G/D mostly. It works the best IMO for the harmonic style I like (right hand melody, left hand accompaniment, sometimes called English style). If I play that way on my C/G then yes, the G tunes get pretty high and squeaky. It's kind of fun, but perhaps not all night long. I play American fiddle tunes, Irish, English, Swedish and a smattering of other tunes from other places. With my harmonic style of play, I can play in all the keys that other people are using for these tunes by playing on the G/D... but with some exceptions. I much prefer C and Dm on the C/G (but those keys are rare among the folks I play with). I can play in C on the G/D but it is quite restrictive with respect to satisfying chords.

 

If you play with other people in sessions then you must play in the keys that everyone else is in, but if you only play alone or with a friend or two you can play in any key you want and so adjust the key of the tune to fit the concertina. Not the best situation perhaps but it certainly works. A different trick is to switch octaves in the middle of the tune to suit your instrument. Creative octave switching is a powerful tool that has never raised a fellow musicians eyebrow. I find that it's barely even noticed.

 

Another solution... you could have two concertinas. Your C/G for Irish style (and those outlier keys) and your G/D for most English, Swedish and American tunes.

 

Best of luck with your playing.

[BertramLevy]

Hi Susi

 

If you want to play the broad range of world music, the C/G configuration is most versatile for several reasons.

 

True that if you see the concertina functioning as a melodeon with the chords on the left and the melody on the right, G/D may be better suited to that style. The wonderful sound of Morris music a- la William Kimber is in many ways defined by playing along the C row. However the danger is that if you apply this technique to other idioms, all the music will sound like Morris tunes rather than, for example, an Irish reel or an American breakdown. By playing cross row one has the freedom to phrase the tune in a manner which is stylistic credible.

 

This doesn’t mean that you can’t accompany your tunes with a C/G box. Rather, by having more melodic options (i.e. duplicate notes in both directions) one can construct an independent counterpoint voice that can play harmony and define rhythm.

 

In the C/G box, the keys of G and D are the most natural because one can play most of the scale in both directions. Not so with the key of C in which the C E F are only represented once in the middle octave. It’s interesting that when you pick up the box, you start with C. When I first started I gravitated to a minor. Now I usually noodle in D and find this to be the most interesting neighborhood in the instrument

 

True one must learn to play cross row but that is not difficult. It simply requires a different mind set in which one has to think of the concertina not as three rows of 5 buttons but five rows of 3 buttons. The techniques for doing this are carefully explained in my new tutor.

 

In addition the keys of A minor and E minor on the C/G are very easy and can be played for the most part in both directions. B minor is also very natural. D minor (an essential key in Swedish music) is very straight forward as the movement from F# to F is very comfortable. Also G minor, which is the important fourth chord in Dm scale, is natural in the opening while G minor in the D/G is as awkward as C minor is in the C/G. F and A are quite fluid in the C/G though one has to learn to address the air issues, which like everything else requires a bit of study.

 

In Irish and American music, many tunes are myxolidian which means a flatted 7th, For example A minor or major to G, D to C and G to F - the latter is most difficult on a G/D box (comparable to going from C to Bflat on a C/G box).

 

Finally if you learn to read music, there is a whole world of great music to be played on the instrument. For example on Tuesday nights, I read Brazilian choros with friends. If I had to transpose each piece from G/D to C/G, I could never have the freedom to read on the fly.

 

Good luck in your decision

 

Bertram

[michael sam wild]

Having played D/G melodeon for many years for English and Irish music I moved to Anglo. I chose C/G and am glad I did. I found G off the C row best, as Mick Bramich recommends , rather than along the G inner row. It is trickier to play in D and A but you get there with practice if you persevere at cross row playing.

 

 

If you want to play alone or with friends you can adapt D tunes to C and play along the rows like Howard says. You could adapt G tunes in F on the C row or go to the G row and play along the row

 

 

If I were playing for morris and social dances or singing in G or D I'd use a G/D but not for Irish music, it works but not as well as cross row C/G where the pay off for hard work is great.

 

 

 

On the other hand a D/A would be nice!

 

 

 

 

 

All the information available helps you try lots of styles on a C/G. For song accompaniment, if you can sing in C you ahve lots of chord opportunities. Quite a few singers actually get a few concertinas to simplify things but that's a whole ball game in itself.

Edited July 19, 2012 by michael sam wild

[Dave Weinstein]

There are G/D boxes where the G row is the same as on a C/G and the D is lower, but these are unusual.

 

The only of these I'm aware of are in the Baritone range, and I have both of them. Are there any more?

 

--Dave

[Alex West]

Dave

 

There's at least one and not a baritone. In the 1970's, Colin Dipper made a G/D for Tony Engle (MD of Topic records and performer in Oak and Webbs Wonders) where the G row was the same pitch as that of a standard C/G and the D row was the same pitch as a standard G/D.

 

Tony had played Jeffries and Crabb instruments previously so knew what he was doing around an anglo. The accidentals on it are in some odd places and it requires a different playing approach if you're used to a more conventional layout. However, like all Dippers, it's a delightful instrument.

 

Alex West

[Dave Weinstein]

Interesting, that would mean Colin has made two of the three known (Bob Tedrow made the other).

[Hasse]

Hej Susi!

Now I noticed that Swedish music wasn't your first priority music repertoire, but for Swedish music I would choose a C/G. I play mainly Swedish music, and when I started of on the C/G I hardly played a tune in straight G or D major, as Bertram Levy so very well explained:

 

In addition the keys of A minor and E minor on the C/G are very easy and can be played for the most part in both directions. B minor is also very natural. D minor (an essential key in Swedish music) is very straight forward as the movement from F# to F is very comfortable. Also G minor, which is the important fourth chord in Dm scale, is natural in the opening while G minor in the D/G is as awkward as C minor is in the C/G. F and A are quite fluid in the C/G though one has to learn to address the air issues, which like everything else requires a bit of study.

 

I found the others keys much more intereting and a way to play all the fiddle tune I missed playing properly after I stopped playing the fiddle. And then I also had a D/G meloden for the tunes in D and G. But these days I'm even neglecting my wonderful D/G meloden playing the D and G tunes on the C/G.

 

So I recommend C/G!

Edited July 19, 2012 by Hasse

[Susanne]

Thanks everyone for your input!! It seems like I'll get a C/G, I'm already learning on one and I'm getting somewhere now finally... plus I do a lot of cross rowing and intend to continue doing that, and don't really play chords on the concertina (and don't see any big need to do that either).

Hasse - are you Swedish? If so, where do you live?

My priority isn't really Swedish music, in the sense that I do love Swedish music, but I play that already on other instruments, like fiddle, octave mando and melodeon. I want to play mainly Irish and English music on the concertina, but of course want to play whatever I can. So I consider it being a nice bonus if I can also play Swedish music on it, since I know a lot of Swedish tunes. And I've already started to find the notes of Nylandspojkarna nerifrån. In A. It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. But I'm taking a break from it now and work with the Irish concertina tutor book for a while.

[Mikefule]

I play a lot of English Morris music and generally play with melody mainly on the right; chords and bass runs on the left; and occasional part chords on the right.

 

On my G/D box this gives me lots of chord options in G, and quite a few chord options in D, and rather fewer than that in A. E minor is also readily available.

 

When playing in D, I play across the rows, typically borrowing most of the notes below the tonic D from the G row. This gives me a nice fat D major chord on the pull. This means that not all D tunes are high and squeeky.

 

If you want to play with D/G melodeons, a G/D Anglo is the sensible option.

 

For Irish, which is mainly single note melody with decorations, rather than chords, playing across the rows on a C/G seems to be the way to go.

[Hasse]

My priority isn't really Swedish music, in the sense that I do love Swedish music, but I play that already on other instruments, like fiddle, octave mando and melodeon. I want to play mainly Irish and English music on the concertina, but of course want to play whatever I can. So I consider it being a nice bonus if I can also play Swedish music on it, since I know a lot of Swedish tunes. And I've already started to find the notes of Nylandspojkarna nerifrån. In A. It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. But I'm taking a break from it now and work with the Irish concertina tutor book for a while.

 

Hej Susi! Years ago I also played ITM and it was that way I got my first contact with the Anglo concertina, but it took me some years, (and a detour round some bandoneon), before I really discovered the potential in the AC. These parts years I’ve been playing mainly Swedish and some Danish folk music, on melodeon, double bass, whistles and AC. But I also have to say that if anyone wants to start play Swedish folk music on a concertina I would advice them to get an EC, my diatonic brain just can’t handle the unisonic EC. And yes, I live in Sweden/Skåne. Where do you live?

[Susanne]

I agree that Swedish trad music is brilliant on the EC, I used to play one but after it was away for repair I don't seem to remember how to play it anymore and I just don't have the energy/time/whatever to re-learn it, so I'll stick with the anglo since I've already started learning how to play that. I remember I could play Johan på Snippen and Svältpolskan and that they went very nicely on the EC.

I live in Vänersborg, Västergötland, at the south end of Vänern. Maybe I'll see you at the SSI next year?