Waltz Time

[Stephen Mills]

What’s a waltz? For over 30 years, I’ve thought I knew, one of several dances in ¾ time, generally with the first beat emphasized (the oom-pah-pah rhythm). Lately, I’m getting confused. I recently bought the Waltz Book I by Bill Matthiessen, which has several ¾ airs included. Fair enough, you can play a Carolan air as a waltz even if that were not intended.

 

(2) Recent posts in another subforum:

 

QUOTE (MikeP @ Aug 2 2004, 01:49 AM)

Well, I found one. ... It's called The Orange Rogue, the first listed here:

 

QUOTE (Jim Lucas @ Aug 2 2004, 02:08 AM)

Hmm. A double jig played as a waltz.

Works well, though, as many do.

 

Well, I’ve liked the Orange Rogue and played it frequently since Aldon first posted it, without ever realizing it might be a waltz in 6/8. I can multiply and divide. I suppose dancers do 6 quick steps in a 3-3 division, instead of 3 per 2-2-2 division, not stepping the second beat per grouping?

 

cognitive dissonance #3. I’ve transcribed and been playing Gaelic Waltz from Alan Stivell’s 1982 “Renaissance of the Celtic Harp” for a month or two. It’s in 4/4 time! Still, the melody groups itself in 3’s, although the accompaniment is 4 beats/measure. I get 3 against 4, but I would have thought a dancer would follow the bass accompaniment rather than the melody.

 

Finally, I’ve recently been playing a French dance called Vals a’ 5 temps (Waltz in 5/4 time) that I printed out from http://diato.org/tablat.htm. (There are several pretty good pieces on this accordion site). Here, I simply give up.

 

Are some of these just misnamed, like so many songs labeled “blues” that aren’t in blues form, or am I missing the broader principle?

Edited August 2, 2004 by Stephen Mills

[Alan Day]

Stephen,French waltzes are played much faster than English style waltzes, they take minute steps and spin more than the English who lift their feet and take larger steps.Hence if you watch French dancers they seem to glide around the floor due to the small steps and lack of rise and fall which you expect with English dancers.

It is very difficult after doing a French waltz, when you have thanked the lady for the dance, to walk in a straight line back to your seat.

Al

[JimLucas]

What’s a waltz?

It's a dance... or a family of dances, sharing certain broad features and presumably all derived from the "original" early 19th-century "waltz" of Austria and southern Germany. (Presumably that also had it's predecessor in earlier dances.)

 

It's also any tune played in a rhythm appropriate to that dance.

... What rhythm?

For over 30 years, I’ve thought I knew, one of several dances in ¾ time, generally with the first beat emphasized (the oom-pah-pah rhythm).

That's pretty much right, though I think the earliest "waltz" music was notated in 3/8 (it's the 3 that's important) and was probably more brisk than most waltzes done today.

 

I recently bought the Waltz Book I by Bill Matthiessen,  which has several ¾ airs included.  Fair enough, you can play a Carolan air as a waltz even if that were not intended.

Precisely! And it's done all the time.

What makes it a waltz is how you play it.

 

I’ve liked the Orange Rogue and played it frequently since Aldon first posted it, without ever realizing it might be a waltz in 6/8.

It's not. You'll find it notated in 6/8, because traditionally that's how it's played, as a double jig. The 6/8 is a description, not a definition. When played the way Aldon has recorded it, as a waltz, it should be notated in 3/4, each 8th note of the jig versíon becoming a quarter note, and each measure of the jig version becoming two measures.

 

I suppose dancers do 6 quick steps in a 3-3 division, instead of 3 per 2-2-2 division, not stepping the second beat per grouping?

The dancers should do it however the music is played. Aldon plays it as a waltz, turning each measure of the original into two 3-beat measures, and nowhere near as "quick" as the jig version. It could also be turned into a waltz by converting each 6/8 measure into a single 3/4 measure (your "2-2-2 division"). It's a bid odd, but it can be done. (I did it just now, for fun. )

 

cognitive dissonance #3...

What you describe sounds like playing fast and loose in using the word waltz, though it may just be Alan playing games with the rhythm of the bass, and what his contrasting rhythms may not be at all traditional. (I remember The Boys of the Lough doing "rigs and jeels", where Robin would beat a jig rhythm on the bodhran while the others played a reel, or vice versa. But I never heard of anyone trying to dance to it.) Do the liner notes say anything about that?

 

Finally, I’ve recently been playing a French dance called Vals a’ 5 temps (Waltz in 5/4 time)

Maybe a joke. Or maybe somebody feels the term "waltz" includes all turning couple dances. But a single nonstandard usage doesn't redefine the term for everybody else.

 

Are some of these just misnamed,...

Basically, yes.

[Steven]

Finally, I’ve recently been playing a French dance called Vals a’ 5 temps (Waltz in 5/4 time)

Maybe a joke. Or maybe somebody feels the term "waltz" includes all turning couple dances. But a single nonstandard usage doesn't redefine the term for everybody else.

I've heard of this tune and of people dancing to it. I don't think it's so much a joke as it is somebody's attempt to expand the definition of "waltz" (both the dance and the type of tune). Perhaps that's not quite the right way to put it either, but I'm pretty sure it was actually a serious attempt to do something with the music and the dance. From what I hear, though, for someone who already knows how to waltz it's incredibly difficult to wrap your brain around this modification, so I doubt it'll ever get particularly popular.

 

As for whether it's misnamed, well, I suppose some people have thought that when they first came across a tune in 9/8 that was called a type of jig. It's not a traditional waltz, but it is a variation on it. Without there being enough tunes of this type, though, it'll probably never get a new name, like the slip jig did.

 

Steven

[JimLucas]

As for whether it's misnamed, well, I suppose some people have thought that when they first came across a tune in 9/8 that was called a type of jig. It's not a traditional waltz, but it is a variation on it.

??? A way of playing 9/8 that's not a slip jig or one of those Bulgarian rhythms, but "a variation on [a waltz]?" I'm having trouble imagining that; please explain further. Can you give an example of such a tune?

[Samantha]

It is very difficult after doing a French waltz, when you have thanked the lady for the dance, to walk in a straight line back to your seat.

Al

What a fantastic image!

Thank you, Al!

Samantha

[JimLucas]

It is very difficult after doing a French waltz, when you have thanked the lady for the dance, to walk in a straight line back to your seat.

I've met a couple of those intoxicating French ladies, myself.

[Steven]

As for whether it's misnamed, well, I suppose some people have thought that when they first came across a tune in 9/8 that was called a type of jig. It's not a traditional waltz, but it is a variation on it.

??? A way of playing 9/8 that's not a slip jig or one of those Bulgarian rhythms, but "a variation on [a waltz]?" I'm having trouble imagining that; please explain further. Can you give an example of such a tune?

No no no, you misunderstood me. I was using the slip jig as an example of something similar to a jig in the same way that this French 5/4 tune is similar to a waltz. You know, along the lines of "that's not a jig -- it's in 9/8 instead of 6/8" the same way other people might say about the French tune "that's not a waltz -- it's in 5/4 instead of 3/4." The difference is that the slip jig is accepted as its own musical form that is similar to a jig, whereas the other has not gained acceptance.

 

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear there.

 

Steven

[Alan Day]

Of course just to confuse you more there is the French Waltz Mazurka,part waltz part mazurka.Two different speeds and timing.A dance I just cannot do,however many times I get dragged up screeming to do.

Al

[stuart estell]

Finally, I’ve recently been playing a French dance called Vals a’ 5 temps (Waltz in 5/4 time)

Maybe a joke. Or maybe somebody feels the term "waltz" includes all turning couple dances. But a single nonstandard usage doesn't redefine the term for everybody else.

 

Not forgetting Dave Brubeck's "It's a Raggy Waltz" of course... which has cross-rhythms between a 3/4 time-signature and straightforward 2/4 ragtime!

[Steven]

Yeah, and then there are the zwiefachers, an Austrian dance where you switch back and forth between waltzing and pivotting. I don't remember whether the pivot parts of the music are in 2/4 or 4/4. In simple ones you have 2 bars of waltz, 1 bar of pivot, repeat often. Others get into much more complex patterns. It's kind of jarring at first to hear the music switching back and forth like that, but once you get used to it it's pretty fun.

 

Steven

[John Wild]

It is very difficult after doing a French waltz, when you have thanked the lady for the dance, to walk in a straight line back to your seat.

Al

I think i will stick to the guinness - the same efect and a more enjoyable process!