(English 'tina) Play simple again in other octave

[bellowbelle]

I have found it helpful practice to play whatever tune/song/melody I'm working on, then play it over but in the higher (or, lower) octave. This is great practice on the English concertina -- I don't know enough about the other squeezeboxes to know if it would even work out.

 

Of course, you have to start the tune high or low enough that the other nearby octave will still be on the keyboard.

 

This practice is maybe of more use to someone working on chords or intervals on the EC, less to someone sticking strictly to melodies. Though, I don't know. It's probably helpful to anyone. Has particularly helped me use the highest buttons more.

 

Have been trying it with some of the traditional Christmas songs, since the melodies are already in my head.

 

Happy Holidays....

 

 

oops..edit...

The title of the post was supposed to say 'Play simple TUNE again in other octave.'

Edited December 21, 2011 by bellowbelle

[david_boveri]

playing up or down an octave is a great way to rethink a tune and make sure that you're not just going through the motions. playing in different keys is also a great idea and i often find that i prefer a given tune in an unusual key.

[Geoff Wooff]

When you have a simple tune worked out in two octaves it is time to try playing the two octaves at the same time. The old players did this and Gordon Cutty talks about that in the interview printed on his record cover (and now on the CD re-issued version) as being a simple thing to do.

 

Maybe it is not the thing one would do all the way through a piece but it is very effective for certain phrases in between a more normal chordal accompaniment.

[bellowbelle]

I do enjoy trying a tune in various keys. Haven't yet tried playing in both octaves together, on the concertina, that I can remember...

 

-- Shall have to give that a try, but... right now the idea makes me think of impossible yoga stretches that I never managed to achieve...

[david_boveri]

yeah, i play the anglo and simultaneous octaves (i just call it double octaves) is not something to be taken lightly! took me about 6 or 7 years to manage it convincingly, and i'm still working at it. i didn't really make progress until i had a lesson with micheál ó raghallaigh. he showed me the tricks of the trade for choosing the right buttons, when to go UP and when to go DOWN the octave. he also showed me how to rearrange the tune to make it sound like you are not cheating to make it easier.

[michael sam wild]

I have had a lot of fun with simultaneous octaves and found Dan Worrall's book very helpful. It was well worth the mental gymnastics and I am quite happy with it now. I played harmonca as a lad and that helps a lot where you used the tongue to isolate the two notes.

I play along as well as I can to Mrs Crotty, Scan Tester and other older recordings. It really gets your head round the available buttons at the low end and the squeaky end of the C/G Anglo. It also goes a long way in working out chord possibilities and nice bass runs etc.

 

It was common in C when Irish musicians were playing alone for dancing and wanted volume and didn't have to accomodate flute or fiddle players too much. A 'double handed'octave tune on a twin reed old Germand diatonic box must have sounded powerful. Like a one row melodeon played in octaves

I'd recommend Sean O'Dwyers CD of tunes from the Beara peninsula, he plays a C/G and G/D Edgely. His mother was a great exponemnt of the old style

.Dan W is working on a project to demonstarte the older octave way of playing which I am really looking forward to.

[JimLucas]

yeah, i play the anglo and simultaneous octaves (i just call it double octaves) is not something to be taken lightly!

Nor on the English, which is what

bellowbelle

plays (see the photo in her profile).

[symon]

So, how do you go about getting comfortable playing two octaves at the same time on an English? Does anyone have any handy hints and tips for developing fluency in playing this way?

Edited January 5, 2012 by symon

[JimLucas]

So, how do you go about getting comfortable playing two octaves at the same time on an English? Does anyone have any handy hints and tips for developing fluency in playing this way?

I'm not by any means fluent at playing parallel octaves, nor do I know of anyone who does that for long phrases, but I have experimented with it, and I would advise two things if you're serious about attempting it.

• Start with relatively slow tunes. (Well, that's a good way to start on just about any technique.)
  
• Before working on playing in parallel octaves, try to develop a feel for playing in parallel sixths. Sixths and octaves are similar in that the upper and lower lines are always in opposite hands, and if you play a scale both lines constantly flip back and forth between the two hands. But I've found it easier to achieve fluency with sixths, finding fewer awkward (or "impossible") fingering sequences than with octaves. So I would consider learning to play in sixths to be a useful step along the way to playing in octaves, as well as providing some nice harmonies.
  

[Geoff Wooff]

So, how do you go about getting comfortable playing two octaves at the same time on an English? Does anyone have any handy hints and tips for developing fluency in playing this way?

 

 

Firstly I suggest that there are two ways of playing tunes. Either one thinks in finger paterns ,learned by practice, or one thinks in button paterns. In 'finger paterns' we work a tune in semi automatic mode. In 'button paterns' the effect is similar but we just need to get a finger, any available, to press the right button. So, in doing this one needs to know, ideally, all the notes and their positions on the keyboard and think the next note, or group of notes to be played and know what they are in a name sense as one needs to do when reading from a musical notation.

 

Then to play in octaves one needs to think "I'm playing a Bb next so where is my Bb in the next octave to go with it... well that is all fairly obvious I guess. Possibly because I've been playing the EC for so long, and mostly in a semi automatic mode, I tend not to think which notes I am playing but just where I have to go to next. Now that I have started on the MacCann I have had to learn where every note is so that I can find them quickly by thinking about where they are.

 

So; know where your notes are. Take a simple tune and start adding the octave notes as you go. Do not worry about keeping your fingering in the 'correct' rows but just get a finger to the required button. Cover any jumping you have to do by holding the octave button on one hand long enough for the jump finger hand to catch up. Think about and work out a smooth fingering. Utilise all four fingers when needed.

 

Do pick something slow, a waltz perhaps... I just tried "The most wonderfull night of the year" in G. This starts B,Bb,B,D,G.

Or try the Intro to "The Entertainer" which is played in octaves,in fact there is a lot of octave work, combined with chords, in this Joplin piece. Get the Piano score and have a try.

 

Lastly; Practice, Practice,Practice.

 

My motto; "I can learn but I cannot be taught".

Hmmmm.... not easy to explain something like this!

Geoff.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Geoff Wooff]

Sorry, yesterday's post might be a bit heavy. Perhaps it would be better to say pick a tune out of the genre of music that you know, or like, and try to find one that has some Arpeggio type phrases which occur on one hand. These can be then doubled quite easily by octaving those notes on the other hand.

Very rarely would one want to play a whole piece through in octaves but a section played that way can be very effective.

 

In the Folk music genre try " The Soldier's Joy" it has a nice arpeggio section in the first part.

 

One more point; when playing in octaves it can be very effective to play the notes of one of the octaves more staccato than the other which gives a sort of rhythmic echo character.

 

Lastly; when you are happy with this octave playing it is just one further step to add a second harmonizing note to the octave note and Voila!, you are playing melody and accompaniment together.

[michael sam wild]

Geoff . do you work that 'other note' out from knowledge of chord composition or by 'suck it and see'or 'hunt and peck'?

. I like 5ths better than 3rds as they cover major or minor chords in trad music whereI play maelody mainly. I rarely want to play 'big juicy chords' as John Kirkpatrick once described them but maybe as I develop other types of tune arrangements maybe they will fit in more.

[Geoff Wooff]

Geoff . do you work that 'other note' out from knowledge of chord composition or by 'suck it and see'or 'hunt and peck'?

. I like 5ths better than 3rds as they cover major or minor chords in trad music whereI play maelody mainly. I rarely want to play 'big juicy chords' as John Kirkpatrick once described them but maybe as I develop other types of tune arrangements maybe they will fit in more.

 

 

Well, I must admit to the 'suck it and see' method with Trad music. On the EC the Thirds (both maj. and min.) are very tempting because one has a spare finger sitting next to the octave note. The Fifth's can be more awkward because they are on the same row (usually) and one needs then to play either by crossing over the adjacent finger or by playing two buttons with one finger. I do use a lot of Thirds, (which is why I prefer not to tune in Equal Temperament), on the EC and this can give a very quick and easy 'second voice' harmony when playing with other people. Not that I would do that in ITM but in our 'French band' it is quite effective.

 

Since I've taken up the Maccann I have had to think about chords and what they consist of in a more logical way but I now find myself searching for the best sounding chord inversion for each melodic phrase, thus it is back to a 'hunt and peck' to some extent.

[symon]

Thanks Jim and Geoff. You confirmed some of what I already knew (practice, practice, practice!) and provided some useful pointers. You've also helped me realise that playing in this way is difficult and not just an easy thing that I can't do. I currently mostly play one note at a time, playing folk music, but I would like to be able to play in a more rich way and have the choice of playing more than one note at a time.

So, back to practice it is!

[JimLucas]

I currently mostly play one note at a time, playing folk music, but I would like to be able to play in a more rich way and have the choice of playing more than one note at a time.

As Geoff mentioned, playing in thirds is an easy -- almost trivial, I would say -- way to get "more than one note at a time". It's the same as playing the melody, but with two fingers at a time.

 

Sure, there are times when the third isn't the "right" harmony, but then that's the next learning step. In particular, a phrase where thirds work almost throughout may have one particular note where the third sounds wrong. Usually the harmony note that sounds "right" will then be either the fourth or the fifth, and that will sound right every time you hit that particular melody note, so you'll learn to use a "variant" finger pattern for that and get used to inserting it among the thirds. Later, with more complex harmonies, you can find other "variations" and teach your fingers to flow among them.

 

With luck -- and a lot of practice, -- you'll eventually reach a point where your fingers are playing the harmonies without your consciousness getting in the way.

[david_boveri]

yeah, i play the anglo and simultaneous octaves (i just call it double octaves) is not something to be taken lightly!

Nor on the English, which is what

bellowbelle

plays (see the photo in her profile).

 

yeah, i noticed that the OP plays english. i'm not sure what the difficulties are presented by the english system in octaves... i have trouble enough getting a scale out of an english concertina! i liken double octaves on the anglo to pulling teeth or getting your fingers tied in knots. what difficulties does the english system present in double octaves?

[symon]

The difficulties for me are twofold (mechanically). First, playing an octave puts your fingers and hand in the wrong place for playing any main melody notes which fall under the same hand. So, you have to think much more about which finger to use and move them more quickly. There's not a lot of space on the keyboard so greater dexterity is required. And, secondly, it's off-putting. I think because of the first difficulty.

 

I find it very difficult to imagine playing a whole tunes in parallel octaves on an English but I can see how it could be done on a melodeon/anglo. So, the layout of an EC makes it easy in one way (the octave button is on the other hand) but difficult in that you then need to be able to continue playing the melody on both hands. The amount of movement and swapping fingers around is mind-boggling. And that's before you even start thinking about how to use those harmonies properly.

 

Well, that's how I see it, anyway. I've been trying to learn to play scales which are harmonised in sixths and octaves and it is very slow and difficult. It is comforting to know it's not just me!

[bellowbelle]

.........I find it very difficult to imagine playing a whole tunes in parallel octaves on an English but I can see how it could be done on a melodeon/anglo.........

That's what I was wondering about.

I have no idea how to play an anglo, or anything other than the English. So, I have wondered if it is actually easier to play 'double octaves' on any of the concertina types in particular.

 

Either way, that's true that it's too hard to grab the melody, if playing double octaves on the EC. So, I wouldn't do it as a rule... BUT, maybe it's useful simply as an exercise... for the ambitious types, anyway!

 

I try to practice or play every day. Another things I've been doing is playing blocks of particular chord progressions, to be able to easily find the relative minor and other chords in any key, and so on.

 

I would love to practice more than I do, but lately I've been busy, and I get headaches, etc.. So, I do what I can, which tends to be stuff that's easier to remember 'by ear' than are some of the more intellectual challenges. In other words, I guess I'm somewhat 'emptying' the mind when I relax and practice, so my ears have to be the smart ones. (So, there's my excuse for not playing double octaves very often, heheh... )