What Am I Missing Besides $$$$$$?

[Greg Jowaisas]

As one who has come recently and late to the vintage concertina arena I feel I have spent some "real" money to get a nice instrument or two this past year.

But some of the current prices for certain concertinas are leaving even me scratching my head (and checking my wallet!).

 

A 55b Wheatstone Crane made in 1942 went for $2,600. +.

 

The amboyna hex Wheatstone circa 1938 (with a tenuous link to Stan Laurel) went for $4100.+ Ebay Item number: 3735905860

 

Now these were, by appearance, decently playable instruments. But I know the Crane duet had "bent over" action and I would expect the late thirties hex to have the same. Nice, servicable action but not as quiet or as smooth or as easy as Wheatstone's pre 1934 rivetted.

 

I'm assuming the buyers did not have an opportunity to play or hear these boxes before bidding. Is there something I'm missing concerning why folks would spend that much on concertinas a number of years removed from the 1890-1930 "Golden Age"?

 

Please "enlighten" me (not my wallet!)

 

Regards, Greg

[Dan Stener]

Hello,

 

I can't wait to read this thread!

 

The Amboyna Wheatstone of reference was apparently purchased by a known collector (based on the winning bidder's name). I would love to hear the buyer's explanation as I, personally, could learn a great deal from this individual's knowledge, experience, and reasoning.

 

Still looking for that Amboyna Lachenal Edeophone English Tenor-Treble

 

Be Well,

 

Dan

[Polly Wilson]

Well, as the person who drove the price up on the amboyna concertina, I guess I had better comment. I was encouraged to look at this instrument by Jim "Evil" Lucas, and obediently drove for 8-1/2 hours to see it, since I figured it would truly go dear, and there is no way I will bid a big amount on an instrument I have not seen (after an "educational" buy in my past).

I shook my head the whole way down, thinking that I was nuts because I could ill afford what "Evil" thought it would go for.

And what a lovely instrument it turned out to be -- needing a wee bit of work but lovely to handle and a spectacular sound -- the action as nice and the bellows as free as the nickle-ended Wheatstone I play that was completely restored by Button Box. Well, I was smitten, realized I would be willing to 'sell the farm' and eat my horse if necessary to get it. So I put in the top bid I figured I could handle, certainly hoping not to be pushed up to that, since I have no first-born (other than the afore-mentioned horse) to barter with. I mean, it was nuts, but I was thinking "I want to play this for the rest of my life."

Then I drove the 8-1/2 hours back and logged on, to find out that I had been outbid.

More sorrow than relief in that one, even if the price I bid was nuts, and even if I would prefer a tenor-treble.

It just sounded really wonderful and was great in the hands as well.

Now I have to make friends with my nickle-ended pal again, not too impressed by my apparent lack of loyalty.

 

ps I ONLY call Jim "Evil" because he has exposed me to finer things in the concertina realm, and I will be eating cat food in my old age as a result!

Edited July 22, 2004 by Polly Wilson

[JimLucas]

ps I ONLY call Jim "Evil" because he has exposed me to finer things in the concertina realm, and I will be eating cat food in my old age as a result!

But my middle initial really is "E".

[Greg Jowaisas]

Polly,

 

Thanks for explaining how you came to your decision to "mortgage the farm".

A wonderful sounding, easy to play, quality instrument that you have personally inspected is certainly "worth" what you are willing to pay for the pleasure it will bring. I'm sorry your bid was unsuccessful.

 

I'm sure Wheatstone made some very fine instruments after they went to "bent over" action post 1933 (I have one I'm fond of ) Did you notice if the amboyna had rivetted or another action?

 

Does anyone have a rivetted action Wheatstone made after 1933?

 

I should add that a nicely set up Lachenal hook and lever or Wheatstone bent over can play very nicely and relatively quietly. In many cases they are suprior to a worn rivet action. I've played several New model Lachenals that were dreams to play.

 

And on the other side of the coin all the right credentials do not necessarilly make a super instrument. Wim Wakker of the Concertina Connection reminded me to judge each instrument on its individual merits. He cited a gilt trimmed amboyna Aeola from the "Golden Era" that just did not sound good despite all his efforts.

 

Any other similar good and bad instrument experiences to share?

 

Regards, Greg

[JimLucas]

Did you notice if the amboyna had rivetted or another action?

I think Polly's report shows that there's a lot more to a "good" vs. a "great" instrument than whether or not it has rivetted action.

[Polly Wilson]

By the time I was looking at the instrument the sellers had gotten so many emails and even phone calls from interested parties, telling them what to do and what not to do (making sure the screws go back into the same holes they came out of, "Those are Handmade Screws...!!!", etc.) they were getting kind of paranoid about handling it. And by the time I got there it was late in the evening, and midnight by the time I left. Anyhow, I opted for looking at their photos of the reeds and left it at that. So I can't tell you whether it had rivetted action! Perhaps the buyer will let us know.

 

I was comparing it to a 1913 Wheatstone and a Lachenal Edeophone that was restored by Wim Wakker and which also has riveitted action. I love the 1913 box and was not willing to consider buying something less pleasant to play, no matter how pretty the face! But, like I said, it played very sweet even without the bit of a tune-up it would need, and I had no reservations about how it played, even if my enthusiasm for concertinas far outruns my expertise.

[Dan Madden]

I know that some people are going to find this irritating, but I wonder about the basic premise of much of this discussion. Has the apparent rise in concertina prices hit the point where the instruments are selling for more than their intrinsic value? Is $5,000 US (purchase price + restoration) really an outrageous price for a decent playing concertina?

 

Musical instruments can be quite expensive. A handmade instrument by a good craftsman really cannot be cheap. Even the ubiquitous mass produced guitar can cost a fussy player $2000 without getting close to the collector market. Further concertinas have to be among the most complicated instruments one can build, and right now they are only built by hand. Also, I think that an objective observer would conclude that the prices that makers of quality new instruments are currently charging are quite reasonable given the work that they must put into building the instrument. Probably because of this, there are only a few makers of player’s concertinas, and they all seem to be interested more in the artistic aspects of the business than the economic ones (although practical concerns require attention to both.) Still these makers struggle to keep prices below $2,000. Instruments with (arguably) the best reed sets are not that far from $4,000.

 

Think about the two concertinas that started this thread. I doubt that anyone could make a new 55 button concertina for under $2,000. The cost of an exact reproduction of the amboyna Wheatstone would easily exceed $4100 if such a thing were even possible.

 

So the supply of new concertinas is limited, and their prices are low compared to the cost of making them. Vintage and antique concertinas are still suprisingly available. Now consider the demand. If we ignore beginning players and beginner instruments, my guess is that there more new concertina players appear each year than there are new concertinas being made. It might be that these numbers are close for anglos, but further apart for English, and definitely far apart for duets. The number of people who need a certain quality of instrument is increasing faster than the supply. This means prices go up.

 

Again I ask, is $5,000 really an outrageous price for a decent playing concertina, old or new? Yes, if you started playing (and buying) concertinas 10 or more years ago. Yes, if you cannot foresee having $5,000 to spend on a musical instrument in the near future? But I think the answer is definitely no, if your only alternative is to make one yourself. Also it’s no, if you don’t have several years to wait for a Dipper or Suttner.

 

So the time to buy a great concertina is 20 years ago. If you missed your chance, it looks as though the time is now. Order your custom one now while prices for an Edgley, Marcus, Tedrow or Geuns-Wakker are still (yes) cheap, or buy a vintage one from The Button Box, Concertina Connection or Barleycorn while they have them. Prices aren’t going to go down and there is only one other direction.

 

The only other alternative I see is to discourage any new players from getting to the point where they will drive up prices any further. Hey………………………., come to think of it maybe you really can’t play Irish music on an English concertina.

 

 

Dan Madden

[JimLucas]

Hey………………………., come to think of it maybe you really can’t play Irish music on an English concertina. 

Especially not on a Jeffries English!

[Stephen Chambers]

Hey………………………., come to think of it maybe you really can’t play Irish music on an English concertina.  

Especially not on a Jeffries English!

Actually, you could be right, I sold a Jeffries English to Geoff Wooff for that very purpose, some years ago, but in the end he got a Wheatstone instead !

 

I too was one of the bidders on the amboyna Wheatstone, in fact I started the bidding with a four-figure bid, and would have bid again, but for a family emergency calling me away. I don't think the price so outrageous for a raised-ended amboyna Wheatstone in such excellent condition, even if the action would not have been rivetted by the time it was made. Amboyna wood concertinas of professional quality are rarely encountered, but highly desireable, so we should expect them to command a premium price.

 

Dan could spend a very long time trying to find his amboyna Edeophone tenor-treble, for what it's worth, I have never seen one !

[Ken_Coles]

Also, I think that an objective observer would conclude that the prices that makers of quality new instruments are currently charging are quite reasonable given the work that they must put into building the instrument. Probably because of this, there are only a few makers of player’s concertinas, and they all seem to be interested more in the artistic aspects of the business than the economic ones (although practical concerns require attention to both.)

 

So the supply of new concertinas is limited, and their prices are low compared to the cost of making them. Vintage and antique concertinas are still suprisingly available. Now consider the demand. If we ignore beginning players and beginner instruments, my guess is that there more new concertina players appear each year than there are new concertinas being made. It might be that these numbers are close for anglos, but further apart for English, and definitely far apart for duets. The number of people who need a certain quality of instrument is increasing faster than the supply. This means prices go up.

Dan's comments remind me of a description I once heard, of the guitar market in the 1950s (forgive my repetition if you've heard me say this before). By the time the Weavers, and later the Kingston Trio, got everyone interested in playing flat-top, steel-string guitar, the supply of good old pre-war Martins and Gibsons had dried up the point where the prices zoomed (and continue to zoom). This had one effect in addition to the ones Dan notes. New makers began to learn the craft, and while it has taken between 10 and 30 years (depending who and how you count), we are now in a great time for the guitar shopper. The aspiring guitarists I know buy a new Martin, Santa Cruz, Taylor, Collings etc., not vintage Martins or Gibsons. This could happen on a smaller scale for us (hey, be optimistic!). The anglo market has already inspired folks who are tinkering or starting to produce some very promising instruments -- I can think of at least three just in the U.S. (e.g. Wally Carroll has been mentioned here recently, and Dana Johnson some time back) and there are more elsewhere. Who knows, maybe some of us will live to see things change, and not just for anglo system. Eat right and get your exercise for your longevity!

[Kurt Braun]

I looked at this site:

 

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/resea...02/rp02-044.pdf

 

and did some quick horse back calculation (I'd be happy to be corrected if I got it wrong!).

 

In 1978 I paid 270 pounds for a 55 key lachanel in fair to good condition. If I did the calcuations right, using the info from the site above, that is 143 pounds indexed to 1974.

 

Now the Wheatstone Crane sold for $2600 or about 1430 pounds. The index listed at the site above for 2001 (close enough) was .16 or 229 pounds indexed to 1974.

 

So that is 143 vs 229. Considering that the Wheatstone is in better than fair to good condition and that it was probably a better instrument to begin with, I'm not seeing a huge increase.

[Chris Timson]

I looked at this site:

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/resea...02/rp02-044.pdf

What an interesting document. Thanks very much for that.

 

Chris

[Dan Stener]

Hello All,

 

I offer this longitudinal comparison in addition to the earlier year-to-year comparison.

 

According to the paper, the price index has increased almost 24 times from 1945 to 2001. Thus the price of an item costing 100-pounds in 1945 yields a price of 2400-pounds in 2001.

 

Now note that the value of the pound is "100" in 1974 and "16" in 2001. There is a 27-year span between 1974 and 2001. This drop in value yields a corresponding 6.25-times increase in price for the period.

 

This is a 27-year time span. There is a 26-year time span between Kurt's Lachenal purchase in 1978 and present. (I'm going to call these "even" for this purpose)

 

Now, if we take Kurt's 1978 price of 270-pounds for the Lachenal and multiply it by 6.25, we have a resulting sum of 1687.5-pounds.

 

The Wheatstone of topic sold for 1430-pounds.

 

That places the price of the Wheatstone at 257.5-pounds and approximately 15% LESS than the economic price/value change for the corresponding time period would indicate.

 

Also of note, it is also 970-pounds and 40% LESS when compared to the 1945-2001 time frame.

 

 

Be Well,

 

Dan

 

Edited for clarity and punctuation

Edited July 25, 2004 by Dan Stener

[Kurt Braun]

I'd be careful of the 1945 to 2001 analysis as it gets most of its power from the huge post war boom that is not likely to repeat -- and we also don't want that sort of thing to repeat as it was accomplished by huge non dollar costs in the years prior to 1945.

 

 

There is also another "value" point of view that is being lost here. I played the Lachanel for about 10 years before it gave up and I used as a trade in. By the end of the period it had lost most of its resale value save the reeds. But it brought music back into my life, pulled me out of countless lows that life throws one over the years, and brought me to the point where I could sensibly "invest" in a better instrument and learn more songs and meet and relate to great people. Now I had no idea it would be a such a good investment for me. Luck is part of it, and over the years I've lost lots on things that looked to be smarter. But, hey, you have to be willing to take chances and those who buy from a passion to play are going to be winners way more often than those who think about the money too much.

Edited July 25, 2004 by Kurt Braun

[Clive Thorne]

Well said Kurt !!

 

Clive

[Dan Madden]

I think that Dan and Kurt's calculations make my point. The comparisons they make are fair, and although they only use two examples, I think the conclusion is clear. The prices that vintage and antique concertinas fetch on Ebay are not really high. They are in keeping, in adjusted value, with prices paid for the same concertinas in the 1970's. Polly really has no reason to justify her reasonable attempt to get a really good looking instrument. Even her reason for not going further made perfect sense.

 

In the first post in the thread, Greg questioned not only the amount of the winning bid, but also the risk that winning bidders took buying a sight-unseen instrument made after the golden age. Risk is a personal matter, but in neither of the two cases in this thread does it seem that bad. If you buy old concertina unrestored, you should be adding in about the cost of restoration. A generous estimate going in is $1,000; that way, anything less will seem like a bargain. Even with this, the prices cited were not bad for a player’s instrument, especially one that will give you the pleasure that Kurt describes. Like Greg I wish that I had the money to take the risks of entering these auctions, but I am happy that I have been able to get very nice instruments for a still reasonable price.

 

I do believe that now is a great time to be buying a concertina. Fine old instruments are still available, and even very good ones are affordable, if not particularly cheap. (The definition of affordable does vary, I realize.) The great news is that there are several options for new instruments. I have a Geuns-Wakker English Baritone and it is a fine instrument, and a great value for the price. Given the comments on this board, Edgley, Marcus, Tedrow anglos are all good deals, and wonderful instruments to play. All of these are available, and there are other makers out there producing fine concertinas at there own pace. I hope, along with Ken, that this is just the beginning of a concertina building renaissance. All it would take is one breakthrough in the production of high quality and low cost reeds. Wim W. thinks he is already there. If others follow, we may not really have to follow Ken’s exercise regimen to see it.

 

 

 

Dan Madden

[Greg Jowaisas]

Joe emailed me his intended post by mistake. With his permission I am posting it:

 

<I'm assuming the buyers did not have an opportunity to play or hear these boxes before bidding. Is there something I'm missing concerning why folks would spend that much on concertinas a number of years removed from the 1890-1930 "Golden Age"?>

 

 

The Edeo on Ebay # 3738553363 just sold for what I think is a heafty

amount.

 

It's an indication IMO that the price of the top of line is going up.

 

From the photographs it looked very rough.

 

IMO a 56 button extended treble is not as desirable as a 48 treble.

Unless it is actually a tenor treble(?), which the seller didn't know.

 

It probably is in old pitch, which is IMO a huge plus. I hope it's kept

that way.

 

A 7 fold bellow is IMO an over kill. 6 would have been better.

 

All in all, Edeos and Aeolas don't come by that often. Congradulations

to the buyer.

 

Joe

 

 

To which I added:

 

By the way, I agree with you. I think the upper tier concertinas are taking a jump in price. Apparently some folks are willing to plunk down $3000. for an Edeophone that may need $500-$1000. in repair work. I'm not saying that is good, bad or inappropriate. It does seem "different" than a year ago when I got interested in concertinas again.

 

Regards, Greg