Tremolo

[Rod]

'Tremolo'. Why do so many exponents of the Concertina appear to totally ignore the virtues of tremolo ?

Singers and most other intrumentalists, in particular string players, enhance their music no end by the delicate application of some tremolo, when and where it is appropriate. There are of course instruments and styles of music for which the application of tremolo is inappropriate and not even a practical option but correctly and tastefully applied it can be one of the most important characteristics which helps to convert mere sound into music to the ear.....in my opinion !

 

( I believe there is some difference of opinion regarding the true definitions of 'Tremolo' and 'Vibrato'. I am thinkig of tremolo as the strictly controlled trembling (or shaking) applied to a single note. An easy enough thing to achieve on a Concertina).

[Wolf Molkentin]

'Tremolo'. Why do so many exponents of the Concertina appear to totally ignore the virtues of tremolo ?

Singers and most other intrumentalists, in particular string players, enhance their music no end by the delicate application of some tremolo, when and where it is appropriate. There are of course instruments and styles of music for which the application of tremolo is inappropriate and not even a practical option but correctly and tastefully applied it can be one of the most important characteristics which helps to convert mere sound into music to the ear.....in my opinion !

 

( I believe there is some difference of opinion regarding the true definitions of 'Tremolo' and 'Vibrato'. I am thinkig of tremolo as the strictly controlled trembling (or shaking) applied to a single note. An easy enough thing to achieve on a Concertina).

Things complicate i.m.o. because of the way a "tremolo" effect (on the amplitude) is indirectly generated with accordions and melodeons, as you will know (the "wet" tuning of - at least - double reeded instruments through slight differences in pitch, thus also modifying their basic sound itself).

 

Apart from this (and thus talking about the usually single reeded concertina again), I have heard a lot of tremolo in your understanding (but including some harmonies) done in Boer music (of which I'd like to provide a fine example here; they use/d to play lots of Anglos over there apparently).

[david_boveri]

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

[Jody Kruskal]

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

 

Vibrato? How do you do that?

[Ardie]

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa),

 

The most common definitions are tremolo=variation of amplitude and vibrato=variation of pitch. With free reed instruments the later is difficult to achieve in some regular way. You can do it one way by "bending the note" as with blues harmonica playing.

What are you actually doing David?

 

I also believe that very frequent and energetic tremolo practise with concertinas might wear the bellows out a bit quicker but everything is relative. Done gently it ought to do no more harm than any pumping. Have you heard of reeds being damaged by it?

That might be more serious...

[Rod]

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

 

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

Vibrato,as I understand the term, is not an option on the Concertina. Tremolo, as I apply it, imposes no additional strain whatsoever on the bellows.

[Jody Kruskal]

Vibrato,as I understand the term, is not an option on the Concertina. Tremolo, as I apply it, imposes no additional strain whatsoever on the bellows.

 

It's cool how the South Africans use that bellows shaking tremolo as an ornamenting feature for their traditional music. As far as I'm aware, they are the only tradition that employs this technique. I've tried to do something along these lines in the music I play but have never liked the results. On the other hand, I often use an active dynamic in my playing that does not tremble but does swing widely in dynamics to achieve sonic interest in the service of rhythm and the musical phrase.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Jody Kruskal

[david_boveri]

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

 

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

well, i will address if it is actually vibrato below, in response to those who addressed it directly.

 

i learned how to do vibrato from noel hill:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTPCXukpYNE#t=3m48

 

so, it's a little understated in that video, but it's similar to what i would go for. he is doing vibrato all over the place, but the most full and robust of a vibrato happens between 4:13 and 4:15, and then a wider, but quicker example between 4:40 and 4:42. noel is much better at "vibrato" than i am, so i tend to go for the fuller, heavy handed vibrato.

 

so, if you think this is vibrato, and want to know more of how i do it, i'd be more than happy to answer more fully or make a video describing how i do it.

 

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa),

 

The most common definitions are tremolo=variation of amplitude and vibrato=variation of pitch. With free reed instruments the later is difficult to achieve in some regular way. You can do it one way by "bending the note" as with blues harmonica playing.

What are you actually doing David?

 

I also believe that very frequent and energetic tremolo practise with concertinas might wear the bellows out a bit quicker but everything is relative. Done gently it ought to do no more harm than any pumping. Have you heard of reeds being damaged by it?

That might be more serious...

 

well, please check the link above earlier in this post for an example of what it sounds like. it might not actually be vibrato according to the dictionary definition, but i would argue that it's done to the same effect. i haven't done an acoustical analysis of the sound, but i would suspect it is closer to a tremolo (according to your definition) insofar as it is mostly an oscillation of amplitude.

 

i would like to add, however, that variations in amplitude on the concertina are also accompanied with variations in pitch, so i am hesitant to fully agree with the assertion that it is a tremolo.

 

whether or not classical music term police would call it a vibrato, i am not sure. all i know is that i do my "vibrato" when one would do vibrato on a capable instrument, and actually studying violin vibrato technique has made my concertina vibrato better (my flute vibrato was never highly developed).

 

 

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

 

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

Vibrato,as I understand the term, is not an option on the Concertina. Tremolo, as I apply it, imposes no additional strain whatsoever on the bellows.

 

please see my discussion of the term vibrato earlier in this post you are reading now.

 

as for the tremolo..., rod, do you apply the tremolo as in the kalfie waltz, as linked by "blue eyed sailor" above? i have tried to do that, and it DID NOT feel like it was good for the bellows. i had never understood why concertinas from south africa were notorious for having damaged bellows until i did that. over many years i can't imagine it would be very good for them at all. even though i am hard on my concertina, i am planning for the bellows to last the rest of my lifetime. i could be wrong, but i felt a lot of pressure being put on the folds of the concertina that i have never felt before.

Edited September 3, 2011 by david_boveri

[Rod]

Vibrato,as I understand the term, is not an option on the Concertina. Tremolo, as I apply it, imposes no additional strain whatsoever on the bellows.

 

It's cool how the South Africans use that bellows shaking tremolo as an ornamenting feature for their traditional music. As far as I'm aware, they are the only tradition that employs this technique. I've tried to do something along these lines in the music I play but have never liked the results. On the other hand, I often use an active dynamic in my playing that does not tremble but does swing widely in dynamics to achieve sonic interest in the service of rhythm and the musical phrase.

 

When I raised the subject of 'Tremolo' I had in mind something considerably more delicate and understated than the example provided by the South African video. I reckon there comes a point where 'Tremolo' becomes 'Warble', (a less attractive word), but we are then getting into the murky waters of semantics.....if that is the appropriate word !!

[Jody Kruskal]

Hi David,

 

The Noel Hill portion, and all the clip was pretty interesting. You may well call what he does "vibrato" and it's very tastefully done too. In fact, it is a tremolo amplitude effect. Any change in frequency is minor (a cent or two if that) compared to the amplitude shifting. You may be modeling this tremolo on a true vibrato that fiddle players often use and so calling it vibrato makes sense to you, but for clear communication about it you might find it helpful to know the difference between the two effects.

[Rod]

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

 

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

well, i will address if it is actually vibrato below, in response to those who addressed it directly.

 

i learned how to do vibrato from noel hill:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTPCXukpYNE#t=3m48

 

so, it's a little understated in that video, but it's similar to what i would go for. he is doing vibrato all over the place, but the most full and robust of a vibrato happens between 4:13 and 4:15, and then a wider, but quicker example between 4:40 and 4:42. noel is much better at "vibrato" than i am, so i tend to go for the fuller, heavy handed vibrato.

 

so, if you think this is vibrato, and want to know more of how i do it, i'd be more than happy to answer more fully or make a video describing how i do it.

 

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa),

 

The most common definitions are tremolo=variation of amplitude and vibrato=variation of pitch. With free reed instruments the later is difficult to achieve in some regular way. You can do it one way by "bending the note" as with blues harmonica playing.

What are you actually doing David?

 

I also believe that very frequent and energetic tremolo practise with concertinas might wear the bellows out a bit quicker but everything is relative. Done gently it ought to do no more harm than any pumping. Have you heard of reeds being damaged by it?

That might be more serious...

 

well, please check the link above earlier in this post for an example of what it sounds like. it might not actually be vibrato according to the dictionary definition, but i would argue that it's done to the same effect. i haven't done an acoustical analysis of the sound, but i would suspect it is closer to a tremolo (according to your definition) insofar as it is mostly an oscillation of amplitude.

 

i would like to add, however, that variations in amplitude on the concertina are also accompanied with variations in pitch, so i am hesitant to fully agree with the assertion that it is a tremolo.

 

whether or not classical music term police would call it a vibrato, i am not sure. all i know is that i do my "vibrato" when one would do vibrato on a capable instrument, and actually studying violin vibrato technique has made my concertina vibrato better (my flute vibrato was never highly developed).

 

 

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique,

 

Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

 

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

Vibrato,as I understand the term, is not an option on the Concertina. Tremolo, as I apply it, imposes no additional strain whatsoever on the bellows.

 

please see my discussion of the term vibrato earlier in this post you are reading now.

 

as for the tremolo..., rod, do you apply the tremolo as in the kalfie waltz, as linked by "blue eyed sailor" above? i have tried to do that, and it DID NOT feel like it was good for the bellows. i had never understood why concertinas from south africa were notorious for having damaged bellows until i did that. over many years i can't imagine it would be very good for them at all. even though i am hard on my concertina, i am planning for the bellows to last the rest of my lifetime. i could be wrong, but i felt a lot of pressure being put on the folds of the concertina that i have never felt before.

 

David, in answer to your question....no,I certainly do not apply tremolo in the style of the South African player and have no wish to do so. I prefer to use the technique in a far more restrained, delicate, gentle, less obtrusive manner.

[JimLucas]

... but we are then getting into the murky waters of semantics.....if that is the appropriate word !!

Around here, semantics often lead to other antics.

Edited September 4, 2011 by JimLucas

[Pete Dunk]

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

Rob Harbron does it by resting the bellows on his knee and either tapping his foot or raising and lowering his heel. Add slightly exaggerated 'pumping' of the bellows and the effect is quite astounding. Rob plays English of course, here he is playing for dance.

[Rod]

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

Rob Harbron does it by resting the bellows on his knee and either tapping his foot or raising and lowering his heel. Add slightly exaggerated 'pumping' of the bellows and the effect is quite astounding. Rob plays English of course, here he is playing for dance.

 

I question whether Rob Harbron could, would or should descibe the effect that he is producing on this dance video as 'Vibrato'.

[Pete Dunk]

I question whether Rob Harbron could, would or should descibe the effect that he is producing on this dance video as 'Vibrato'.

 

Not much of it is of course, the heavy pulsing is a pretty extreme effect but Rob is capable of using the technique with great subtlety.

[JimLucas]

I question whether Rob Harbron could, would or should descibe the effect that he is producing on this dance video as 'Vibrato'.

Not much of it is of course, the heavy pulsing is a pretty extreme effect but Rob is capable of using the technique with great subtlety.

By "with more subtlety", do you mean "more gently", or "more rapidly", or what?

 

And have you accepted -- at least for the sake of discussion within this thread -- the distinction between "vibrato" as a rapid variation in pitch and "tremolo" as a rapid variation in intensity?

 

In what Rob is doing in that video, aside from it not being rapid, I'm not detecting any variation in pitch, but only in amplitude. (It reminds me of the pulsing effect used by hurdy-gurdy players.)

[Pete Dunk]

The concertina is in fact incapable of either vibrato or tremolo in the true sense by definition. My acceptance of either then is meaningless as it happens, I was trying to join in the thread using generic terms. I rather like Rob's attempts to recreate the affects as far as is possible and pretty much resent your attempts to turn this into a scientific debate asking me if I 'accept' criteria that are pretty much academic because they don't really apply to the matter in question.

 

Tell me Jim, exactly, how tremolo and vibrato can be applied to concertina playing in the strictest, technically correct terms? Describe if you will, proper practise techniques that will help me to achieve both tremolo and vibrato on the English concertina.

[Jody Kruskal]

Vibrato? How do you do that?

 

Rob Harbron does it by resting the bellows on his knee and either tapping his foot or raising and lowering his heel. Add slightly exaggerated 'pumping' of the bellows and the effect is quite astounding. Rob plays English of course, here he is playing for dance.

 

I question whether Rob Harbron could, would or should descibe the effect that he is producing on this dance video as 'Vibrato'.

No, that is not either vibrato nor tremolo but it is an absolutely stonking performance. Robs use of the rhythmic bellows is striking, strong and beautiful. An Anglo could not get that effect so cleanly because as Rob changes bellows direction he is keeping his fingers depressed (much of the time at least). That is what I call a "bellows articulation" as opposed to a "button articulation" where you load the bellows with pressure and then push the button. The Anglo can use this sort of bellows articulation but the pitches change in doing so... unless you play left hand buttons 4a and 4. On a C/G that would give you G/A and A/G, the interval of a second. By keeping both buttons down while pushing and drawing the bellows with a rhythm you get something like the effect Rob is using. On the English and duets you have lots of other pitch options of course.

 

Rob is using bellows articulation to create rhythm. On the other hand, tremolo on the concertina is made by a faster, mostly non-metric shaking of the bellows. It is not used to create rhythmic effects but rather an expressive shaking of the sound. The Noel Hill and the South African example above are both true tremolo. Every instrument has its own way of producing this effect. Think of how a mandolin or marimba player can make a sustained note by playing the string or bar over and over. That's only one of a whole range of tremolo effects. Check out this rather complete definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo

 

Thanks for sharing that video link, Mr. Tallship. Lets see some more like that!

Edited September 5, 2011 by Jody Kruskal