maybe worth a look

[danersen]

This is a bit of topic drift, but I shall ask, anyway.

I'm always fascinated each time I read that one can lower the pitch of a reed by removing some of it's mass, I.e., filing it.

I'm certainly no physicist or engineer, so I truly have not the slightwst clue to understanding this, but to my elementary way of thinking, it seems counter-intuitive.

Would someone or ones please explain this?

Thanks,

Dan

[Ransom]

Filing near the tip of the reed principally removes mass, which lets the reed oscillate faster-- the springing action of the reed has less mass to throw around. Filing nearer the base of the reed makes two differences: 1) the mass you're removing wasn't so hard to move around anyway, since it was close to the "fulcrum", and 2) the metal down there at the base was providing more of the springiness that threw the tip around.

 

By making the spring weaker, you make it oscillate slower, and sound at a lower pitch.

[Ardie]

... an anglo marketed,sold or intended for playing in B/F# would be strange anyhow. Who does preferrably use these keys at all?? So - if reeds are stamped B/F# etc the initial "true" tuning and musical intention likely has been Bb/F ( but in Old Philharmonic Pitch) or C/G...

 

...The concertina in question was 50 cents flat of standard B/F#(a quarter step low). So it required carefully lowing the pitch 50 cents to Bb/F standard...

 

This seems to support my assumption in the earlier post."The concertina in question" thus was right in the middle between B/F# and Bb/F ! That makes it exactly corresponding to an original Bb/F instrument in Old Philharmonic Pitch (a=452,5).

Furthermore - IF being a "B/F#" instrument - such a low pitch ( below a=430) has not been commonly in use since 18th century which also makes is less plausible that B/F# anglos in low pitch were common in the 1890s.

My conclusion remains being that the instrument (like others of the kind) is/was meant to be a Bb/F in high pitch.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Returning to the thread,

 

Contrary to my reluctance to enter into discussion due to my lack of expertise on the development and use of musical pitches, one has to consider what the situation was 120 years ago when the instrument forming the basis of this thread was made.

 

It should be remembered that Crabb instruments were all made to requirement be that of an individual or dealer (wholesaler). Nothing was made for stock or marketed, one could not buy a new Crabb instrument direct 'off the shelf' unless something was available due to a cancelled order.

 

In hindsight, B/F# may seem odd but that was obviously what was wanted irrespective of Pitch and any amount of speculation cannot dispute that fact. As attested elsewhere, instruments exist where the reeds are stamped for B/F# and receipts, as late as 1928, in my possession, clearly show instruments supplied as 'B natural'.

(Early Anglo's were generally referred to by the lower scale row only:-

G/D = G, Bb/F = Bb, C/G = C etc. where the second scale row was a fifth higher. Exceptions were made for 'specials' such as:-

Three row, 30 button in three diatonic scales i.e. X/Y/Z or

Four row, 40 button in four diatonic scales i.e. W/X/Y/Z.)

 

Whilst looking at receipts, I even came across a 71 button Crane Duet made 1933 in 'B natural'. (Pitch C-522)

 

Note frame stamping. Crabb practice has always been for the frames to be stamped with the note value after each reed was completed and ready for initial installation in the instrument. If a note, when sounded, differs from the indicated stamping that could suggest that alteration has been made since manufacture.

 

Geoff

 

I believe the thread instrument sold for £2550.

[DDF]

I'm familiar with Greg's retuned B/F# and before it was retuned to Bb/F, it wasn't tuned to modern standards and since its tuning was closer to Bb/F (half step) than it was to C/G (full step)....

Huh?

Assuming the same pitch standard, B is equally far from Bb and C. If a different pitch standard puts it closer to one than the other, the total distance between Bb and C is still only one full step, not 1½ steps.

 

I suspect you meant that relative to an A440 standard, it was somewhat less than a half step to Bb and somewhat more than a half step to C. But each of those two fractions would still be less than one, and they would have to add to one.

 

The concertina in question was 50 cents flat of standard B/F#(a quarter step low). So it required carefully lowing the pitch 50 cents to Bb/F standard.

 

To take the pitch to C/G standard would have required bringing the reeds up 150 cents (3/4 of a step).

 

Bb/F is a wonderful range for concertinas.

 

Greg

Mine is around 20cents sharp of B/F# so I guess it wouldn't be a huge jump.I agree "Bb/F is a wonderful range" and I am very fortunate to own one in this tuning which I have left in the original pitch and tuning.David.

[Frank Edgley]

I agree that Bb/F is a woder ful range. After making one for a customer a few years back, I had to have one. It is now my favourite concertina. It's a shame ITM is not played in F. However, Northumbrian music is, due to the key of the Northumbrian pipes. It is also beautiful music, which I recommend. Check out the website http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/index.php?page=Book-Store-One .

[Geoff Wooff]

I agree that Bb/F is a woder ful range. After making one for a customer a few years back, I had to have one. It is now my favourite concertina. It's a shame ITM is not played in F. However, Northumbrian music is, due to the key of the Northumbrian pipes. It is also beautiful music, which I recommend. Check out the website http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/index.php?page=Book-Store-One .

 

 

I agree with that Frank,

my pipes (as in my Avatar) are pitched in C so a Bb/F concertina would be the one to use... if anyone feels like dropping in for a few tunes when they are next in Central france... I am also happy to play ITM in those keys on my EC.

 

Jacqueline McCarthy and Tommy Keane do lovely duets using an A/E Jeffries and B pipes... worth checking out if/when they make a new CD... we live in hopes.

[Gan Ainm]

It's a shame ITM is not played in F.

Some Irish Traditional Music is played in F. For example, the brand new CD of concertina music by Cormac Begley and Jack Talty called Na Fir Bolg has several lovely tracks in F. Cormac plays Bb/F Baritone on some tracks and they both play a variety of concertinas throughout the CD. From the day I got this recording, it instantly became one of my favourite CDs.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Gan Ainm

[tomo]

I like playing Irish traditional music on the C flute with the Bb/F concertina, too! We recently recorded two set dances, using a Bb/F concertina and a C flute. We enjoyed it very much!

 

The Orange Rouge (set dance)

 

The Rambling Rake (set dance)

 

Tomoyuki

[Geoffrey Crabb]

... an anglo marketed,sold or intended for playing in B/F# would be strange anyhow. Who does preferrably use these keys at all?? So - if reeds are stamped B/F# etc the initial "true" tuning and musical intention likely has been Bb/F ( but in Old Philharmonic Pitch) or C/G...

 

...The concertina in question was 50 cents flat of standard B/F#(a quarter step low). So it required carefully lowing the pitch 50 cents to Bb/F standard...

 

This seems to support my assumption in the earlier post."The concertina in question" thus was right in the middle between B/F# and Bb/F ! That makes it exactly corresponding to an original Bb/F instrument in Old Philharmonic Pitch (a=452,5).

Furthermore - IF being a "B/F#" instrument - such a low pitch ( below a=430) has not been commonly in use since 18th century which also makes is less plausible that B/F# anglos in low pitch were common in the 1890s.

My conclusion remains being that the instrument (like others of the kind) is/was meant to be a Bb/F in high pitch.

 

 

Actually, after inspection, the reeds of the 'instrument in question' are stamped as C(G) and appear to be untouched, the tuning being high pitch. This has been added to the record.

 

This does not alter the fact that a high proportion of Crabb Anglos were made in B(F#) irrespective of the actual pitch.

A closer inspecton of the Crabb records shows, of the 50 Anglos made during 1890, 37 were B (F#) , 4 were Bb(F) and 9 were C(G)

also, of the 47 made in 1891, 29 were B(F#), 9 were Bb(F) and 9 were C(G).

 

Ardie, below is a 1892 page from the record book (now quite fragile) which shows 3 instruments, one in Bb, one in C and one in B.

 

 

This shows:-

Aug 19. 1 20 keyed Rosewood in Bb. £1-10-0

Aug 25, 1 20 keyed Rosewood Gilt Bellows in C, mahogany case. £1-18-9

Aug 30, 1 31 Keyed, Mettle (metal) tops in B. £3-5-0

 

Following your assumption and conclusion that B(F#) instruments are or were meant to be Bb(F), what are your assumptions and conclusions for instruments made at the time as Bb(F) and C(G) based on the same Pitch?

 

It is a difficult subject if discussion is based on 'recognised' pitch but depending on the purpose and indeed the community in which the instruments were or are used, the pitch may vary from the 'recognised'.

 

In the heyday of the Liverpool Bands, it was usual that pitch could vary between bands. In fact when an instrument was aquired by a band, transferred between bands or needed reed work, it would come to the workshop for a pitch change or retuning. There were probably a dozen or so different pitches in use and we had to keep records of the pitch used by each band to carry out the work.

The reason for these bands to retain a particular pitch as with miltary bands and Salavation Army bands/individuals retaining old pitch for a considerable time, the cost of changing all the instruments to a 'modern' common pitch would have been beyond resources.

 

 

Geoff