Traditional /Electronic Concertina Combination

[Rod]

 

The tried and tested direct mechanical linkage between button and pad is still the simplest and most cost effective.

 

 

also, as a side effect, the mechanical linkage also links dynamics - press hard, and you'll get a different effect from pressing gentle. Press fast and sharp, and it'll sound different from pressing slow. A micro switch will be digital, so it's either on or off. Of course the dynamics will to some degree translate to the on/off (eg fast/slow can reasonably well translated given a high enough switch sampling rate), but some will be lost (eg a slow opening of the valve), so by merely digitizing the path between the button pressed and the valve opens, you'll lose some of the possibilities that purely mechanical concertina action offers.

 

Of course one could try to approximate this by putting a micro controller in between, inserting both an on and and off position switch and sampling the time between the two positions to determine attack speed and force. This could then be translated to a table step motor that drives the valve not in a strict on/off fashion. A similar problem arose when folks tried to emulate bellows effect in MIDI concertinas where complicated pressure sensor samplings and evaluations had to be added just to figure out how the bellow was moved.

 

All that could be done, but would incur tremendous development costs and driving the price of the unit up significantly (as you already point out for the "simple one switch" solution), just to approximate the effect that comes for free in the "real thing." Remindes me of the modern cars in which digital sampling is used to measure the gas tank level - and in the dash board this is translated to an analog signal driving an analog meter so that one is fooled into believing that there is a good old swimmer in the gas tank...

 

I believe that people who belong to the "target group" outlined by Alan may be best off with MIDI concertinas (eg, arthritis may also make bellows moving painful in which case an affected person may prefer a no bellows concertina).

 

Just a few random thoughts here...

I think in the hands of an experienced player it would speed up button response time.Not sure how many use partly pressed playing techniques, the major one is bellows control. Certainly note bending would be a no go but very few players that I have heard actually practice that technique.

Fluid control is interesting as an idea.(not beer)some of the bellows pressure could be diverted I suppose.

Al

 

Excuse my ignorance but how do you define 'note bending' on an Anglo. Have heard the expression often without understanding its meaning, its purpose, or the technique involved. Haven't knowingly bent a note in 32 years !

[Alan Day]

Excuse my ignorance but how do you define 'note bending' on an Anglo. Have heard the expression often without understanding its meaning, its purpose, or the technique involved. Haven't knowingly bent a note in 32 years !

It is basically done by slowly depressing the button and at the same time increasing the bellows pressure.

Have a listen to Rainer Susmilch on English International who has perfected the art.

Do not attempt it if you have a brass reeded instrument.

If this proves to be an interesting tangent please start another thread.

Ta

Al

[shaunw]

A Midi concertina can not only sound like a real concertina, it can even sound exactly like

your concertina. You need to understand MIDI and sound font technology.

 

There are other advantages to a MIDI concertina. It enables you to play a Bass, Baritone,

Treble or Piccolo concertina without any extra expense. It can also enable you to play other

instruments such as a piano or church organ (with limitations).

 

Implementing bellows on a midi concertina can be done but is not necessarily the best solution.

A midi foot pedal can make for a more expressive instrument and one that is easier to play for

people with arthritis etc.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Excuse my ignorance but how do you define 'note bending' on an Anglo. Have heard the expression often without understanding its meaning, its purpose, or the technique involved. Haven't knowingly bent a note in 32 years !

 

"Bending" a note means altering its pitch very slightly to achieve a particular effect.

It's most conspicuous in blues harmonica, but it is used on gutars, too. Theoretically, the available notes are defined by the tuning of the reeds and the positions of the frets, respectively, if you just play the instrument "normally". But of you push a guitar string sideways while pressing it against the fret, the pitch of the note goes up slightly. And if you blow harder on the reeds of a harmonica, the pitch of the note drops slightly. Choir singers do this too, to improve the temper of a chord, but it's not so conspicuous, because the human voice doesn't have rigidly defined notes.

 

The Anglo is basically two harmonicas cut in half and fitted with a bellows, so the same principle can be applied. The technique is not applied to accordions (correct me if I'm wrong, you accordionists), because of the bellows cross-section. Remember, we used to express air pressure in lb. per sq. in. or kg per sq. cm, rather than in bar. The "sq.cm" part of the formula is fixed by the size of the bellows, and the "kg" part varies with the force of our hands. With the large area of an accordion bellows, a change in the hand force has less effect than with the comparatively small area of a concertina bellows.

In the harmonica, the force exerted by the lungs acts on the tiny area of the reed chamber, so the effect is easier to produce.

 

I would imagine that bending would not be so feasible on an EC - again, correct me if I'm wrong! The Anglo, wiith its stout handstraps and handrests, allows you to exert considerable force on the bellows in both directions, whereas the tips of the thumb and pinkie, which are all you've got to control the bellows of the EC, would suffer if you applied more than normal force.

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

[Alan Day]

Excuse my ignorance but how do you define 'note bending' on an Anglo. Have heard the expression often without understanding its meaning, its purpose, or the technique involved. Haven't knowingly bent a note in 32 years !

 

"Bending" a note means altering its pitch very slightly to achieve a particular effect.

It's most conspicuous in blues harmonica, but it is used on gutars, too. Theoretically, the available notes are defined by the tuning of the reeds and the positions of the frets, respectively, if you just play the instrument "normally". But of you push a guitar string sideways while pressing it against the fret, the pitch of the note goes up slightly. And if you blow harder on the reeds of a harmonica, the pitch of the note drops slightly. Choir singers do this too, to improve the temper of a chord, but it's not so conspicuous, because the human voice doesn't have rigidly defined notes.

 

The Anglo is basically two harmonicas cut in half and fitted with a bellows, so the same principle can be applied. The technique is not applied to accordions (correct me if I'm wrong, you accordionists), because of the bellows cross-section. Remember, we used to express air pressure in lb. per sq. in. or kg per sq. cm, rather than in bar. The "sq.cm" part of the formula is fixed by the size of the bellows, and the "kg" part varies with the force of our hands. With the large area of an accordion bellows, a change in the hand force has less effect than with the comparatively small area of a concertina bellows.

In the harmonica, the force exerted by the lungs acts on the tiny area of the reed chamber, so the effect is easier to produce.

 

I would imagine that bending would not be so feasible on an EC - again, correct me if I'm wrong! The Anglo, wiith its stout handstraps and handrests, allows you to exert considerable force on the bellows in both directions, whereas the tips of the thumb and pinkie, which are all you've got to control the bellows of the EC, would suffer if you applied more than normal force.

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

It is an English that Rainer plays.I should imagine that it is easier on the push than on the pull.

Never watched him play so I cannot say for certain.

Al

[Rod]

Excuse my ignorance but how do you define 'note bending' on an Anglo. Have heard the expression often without understanding its meaning, its purpose, or the technique involved. Haven't knowingly bent a note in 32 years !

 

"Bending" a note means altering its pitch very slightly to achieve a particular effect.

It's most conspicuous in blues harmonica, but it is used on gutars, too. Theoretically, the available notes are defined by the tuning of the reeds and the positions of the frets, respectively, if you just play the instrument "normally". But of you push a guitar string sideways while pressing it against the fret, the pitch of the note goes up slightly. And if you blow harder on the reeds of a harmonica, the pitch of the note drops slightly. Choir singers do this too, to improve the temper of a chord, but it's not so conspicuous, because the human voice doesn't have rigidly defined notes.

 

The Anglo is basically two harmonicas cut in half and fitted with a bellows, so the same principle can be applied. The technique is not applied to accordions (correct me if I'm wrong, you accordionists), because of the bellows cross-section. Remember, we used to express air pressure in lb. per sq. in. or kg per sq. cm, rather than in bar. The "sq.cm" part of the formula is fixed by the size of the bellows, and the "kg" part varies with the force of our hands. With the large area of an accordion bellows, a change in the hand force has less effect than with the comparatively small area of a concertina bellows.

In the harmonica, the force exerted by the lungs acts on the tiny area of the reed chamber, so the effect is easier to produce.

 

I would imagine that bending would not be so feasible on an EC - again, correct me if I'm wrong! The Anglo, wiith its stout handstraps and handrests, allows you to exert considerable force on the bellows in both directions, whereas the tips of the thumb and pinkie, which are all you've got to control the bellows of the EC, would suffer if you applied more than normal force.

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

It is an English that Rainer plays.I should imagine that it is easier on the push than on the pull.

Never watched him play so I cannot say for certain.

Al

 

Thanks John and Al for taking the trouble to tackle my query. With experience I have discovered that there are no

end of things which can be done to enhance the musical possibilities of the Anglo. Instinctive little techniques which would be far from easy to describe or explain but which add colour and character to the music and make the whole business all the more rewarding.

[JimLucas]

I would imagine that bending would not be so feasible on an EC - again, correct me if I'm wrong! The Anglo, wiith its stout handstraps and handrests, allows you to exert considerable force on the bellows in both directions, whereas the tips of the thumb and pinkie, which are all you've got to control the bellows of the EC, would suffer if you applied more than normal force.

It is an English that Rainer plays.I should imagine that it is easier on the push than on the pull.

Never watched him play so I cannot say for certain.

I'm not sure what you're imagining as to how the effect is achieved, but it's definitely not by applying so much force to the bellows as to be in danger of bursting it (on push) or tearing it apart (on pull).

 

In the past I've achieved bending on both anglo and English, though with difficulty. It's a technique on my list of things to learn that I expect will take more practice than I'm willing to invest in order to achieve consistent results. I've just tried it again, though, on three Englishes -- two nice, tight Aeolas (one 50-button treble, one 64-button tenor-treble) and a rather leaky 48-button Edeophone -- and my Crane duet by Jeffries, and I succeeded (still with great difficulty in controlling the effect) on all three. Tje pressure difference needed to achieve the effect was no greater than what I use for dynamics in normal playing, so pressure alone isn't enough to produce bending. Also, I found little if any difference in difficulty between push and pull. The "if any" seemed to very slightly favor pull for ease of getting the effect.

 

In my efforts, the most important factor in bending seems to be almost closing the pad, which I speculate makes it possible to increase the pressure without increasing (possibly even reducing?) the amount of air flowing through the reed. I find it more difficult on higher notes. Could that be because for the smaller reeds and holes the gap between the pad and pad board needs to be proportionally smaller and thus more difficult to control? The type of reed -- brass vs. steel, long-scale vs. extra wide -- may also make a difference, but I'm not sure about that.

[JimLucas]

"Bending" a note means altering its pitch very slightly to achieve a particular effect.

...

The technique is not applied to accordions (correct me if I'm wrong, you accordionists), because of the bellows cross-section.

I believe Tom Tonon -- ttonon here on Concertina.net -- has patented a method for achieving the effect on accordions. I haven't investigated the details, but I believe that you'll find some useful discussion if you search on his posts.

[Aquarussell]

To the original point of making a very fast acting reeded concertina, how about push buttons and optical interrupters? No mechanical switch at all. Failure modes would seem to be dust in the optical path and spring failure.

 

Does someone here know how small the minimum size opening must be to supply enough air to set a reed moving? To open and close again an opening, it must be possible to move the valve quickly. Perhaps a rotory valve? In any case, it would also have to be very quiet.

 

I see the switch as not a problem. I see the actuator as being the problem.

 

Or, wait.

 

Assisted actuation?

 

Good night.

Aquarussell

Russell Hedges

[shaunw]

To the original point of making a very fast acting reeded concertina, how about push buttons and optical interrupters? No mechanical switch at all. Failure modes would seem to be dust in the optical path and spring failure.

 

Does someone here know how small the minimum size opening must be to supply enough air to set a reed moving? To open and close again an opening, it must be possible to move the valve quickly. Perhaps a rotory valve? In any case, it would also have to be very quiet.

 

I see the switch as not a problem. I see the actuator as being the problem.

 

Or, wait.

 

Assisted actuation?

 

Good night.

Aquarussell

Russell Hedges

 

 

Why go to all that trouble. Just make some high quality recordings of your concertina.

Turn these recordings into a soundfont. Then play that soundfont using a midi concertina.

You will have a fast acting concertina with a real concertina sound with the added advantage

that you can play it as a bass, baritone, treble or piccolo concertina and you won't have

destroyed your acoustic concertina by messing around with its insides.

 

The original poster said that you can't get a real concertina sound from a midi concertina.

That is just completely wrong.

[Michael Eskin]

To the original point of making a very fast acting reeded concertina, how about push buttons and optical interrupters? No mechanical switch at all. Failure modes would seem to be dust in the optical path and spring failure.

 

Does someone here know how small the minimum size opening must be to supply enough air to set a reed moving? To open and close again an opening, it must be possible to move the valve quickly. Perhaps a rotory valve? In any case, it would also have to be very quiet.

 

I see the switch as not a problem. I see the actuator as being the problem.

 

Or, wait.

 

Assisted actuation?

 

Good night.

Aquarussell

Russell Hedges

 

 

Why go to all that trouble. Just make some high quality recordings of your concertina.

Turn these recordings into a soundfont. Then play that soundfont using a midi concertina.

You will have a fast acting concertina with a real concertina sound with the added advantage

that you can play it as a bass, baritone, treble or piccolo concertina and you won't have

destroyed your acoustic concertina by messing around with its insides.

 

The original poster said that you can't get a real concertina sound from a midi concertina.

That is just completely wrong.

 

You absolutely can get a great sound with a MIDI concertina and the right samples, I did this three years ago with a Wakker MIDI and Native Instruments Kontakt running on a laptop. I sampled every button on my instruments. Those same samples became the basis of my iPhone and iPad Concertina-related apps and I think sound extremely good. That being said, it was a lot of work editing and balancing the levels for the sample set.

Edited July 28, 2011 by eskin

[shaunw]

To the original point of making a very fast acting reeded concertina, how about push buttons and optical interrupters? No mechanical switch at all. Failure modes would seem to be dust in the optical path and spring failure.

 

Does someone here know how small the minimum size opening must be to supply enough air to set a reed moving? To open and close again an opening, it must be possible to move the valve quickly. Perhaps a rotory valve? In any case, it would also have to be very quiet.

 

I see the switch as not a problem. I see the actuator as being the problem.

 

Or, wait.

 

Assisted actuation?

 

Good night.

Aquarussell

Russell Hedges

 

 

Why go to all that trouble. Just make some high quality recordings of your concertina.

Turn these recordings into a soundfont. Then play that soundfont using a midi concertina.

You will have a fast acting concertina with a real concertina sound with the added advantage

that you can play it as a bass, baritone, treble or piccolo concertina and you won't have

destroyed your acoustic concertina by messing around with its insides.

 

The original poster said that you can't get a real concertina sound from a midi concertina.

That is just completely wrong.

 

You absolutely can get a great sound with a MIDI concertina and the right samples, I did this three years ago with a Wakker MIDI and Native Instruments Kontakt running on a laptop. I sampled every button on my instruments. Those same samples became the basis of my iPhone and iPad Concertina-related apps and I think sound extremely good. That being said, it was a lot of work editing and balancing the levels for the sample set.

 

I agree that creating a good sound font can be a lot of work but for the average person there is a very good

sound font (made from a baritone Wheatstone concertina) available for free via the Internet.

[Kautilya]

just fyi - via a Breton player

 

http://www.universal-piper.com/fr/Le_voir-lecouter.html