Twin Reeded Lachenal Anglo -Tuning

[OLDNICKILBY]

I have a Twin Reeded Lachenal Anglo that is in dire need of tuning,. Does any one have a chart for the differential in the two reeds. HELP

[hjcjones]

It will depend on the sound you want to achieve. Melodeons and accordions are tuned with varying differentials between the two reeds, ranging from "dry" (unison) to "wet", with various degrees in between. These are commonly referred to by names ("swing", "quebec", "Cajun" etc), but as no one can seem to agree exactly what these mean it's probably better to refer to cents.

 

There's a good explanation here.

 

Of course, this refers to accordions. I would guess that the point of a concertina having double reeds is to achieve greater volume rather than a tremelo sound, in which case dry (unison) tuning would be the answer. On the other hand, you might want a more melodeon-ish effect, in which case you might want to add a bit of tremelo.

 

This web page includes some sound files illustrating different amounts of tremelo.

 

Personally I don't like too wet a sound - my melodeon is swing-tuned. Anything wetter than a Hohner Pokerwork (about 15 cents) is too much for me. But it's a matter of taste - some people love a wet sound.

 

The actual tuning seems to be quite a complicated issue, depending in part on the quality of the reeds. It's probably best speaking to a tuning expert (which I'm not) about the fine details.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I have a Twin Reeded Lachenal Anglo that is in dire need of tuning,. Does any one have a chart for the differential in the two reeds. HELP

 

OldNickilby,

 

Repair Master and cnet member Malcolm Clapp who does excellent work with concertinas and melodeons would have some opinions and advice worth listening to.

 

I, for one, would love to see some pictures of the beast!

 

5 years ago I had an ebay surprise in what I thought was a 20b Lachenal arrived and included double brass reeds! Closer inspection revealed it may have been made by the mysterious Mr. Tidder.

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2592&hl=tidder

 

Mine has been languishing on the workbench waiting for some time and attention (or a rescue by Neil Wayne!)

I'm glad you are moving ahead with your reconditioning and I'll look forward to a sound sample.

 

Greg

[TomB-R]

Obviously enough there's lots of multi-reed expertise amongst the accordion folks. I've only worked on dry tuned boxes but if tempted otherwise i think my first port of call would be

 

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner.php

 

Comments on this software over at melodeon.net seem generally positive.

 

 

[JimLucas]

I have a Twin Reeded Lachenal Anglo that is in dire need of tuning,. Does any one have a chart for the differential in the two reeds. HELP

IF you are interested in discovering and retaining the original tuning of your instrument, then I think the first thing to do would be to determine the current pitches of each individual reed and use some sort of statistical analysis to -- one hopes -- determine the "most likely" of both degree of wetness and temperament.

 

If reproducing the original isn't your goal, then the advice already given by others should help you along your way.

[malcolm clapp]

Interested in this thread!

 

The obvious (to me) questions have not yet been asked.

Are each reed pair of virtually the same pitch, or are they tuned an octave apart?

And secondly, are each pair in the same or separate chambers? And if the same, do they share a common (sort of)M shaped reed shoe or is each reed in a separate shoe?

 

A few random thoughts pending clarification of the above; (a photo of the reed pans would be nice...)

 

Howard, from my experience with accordions, dry tuning of two reeds does not give more apparent volume than tremolo tuning. The converse is true, provided the amount of pressure on the bellows is the same. Ask any ITM session fiddle player about accordions and you will be told that wet equals loud. In practice, however, players with dry tuned accordions tend to push harder to counter the perceived lack of volume.

 

Dry tuning is barely, if at all, any louder than a single reed if tuned accurately; identical sound waves and acoustic cancellation (???) will result (I'm sure some one else can explain the physics better than me). A little tremolo, even a couple of cents, will make quite some apparent volume difference. So will octave tuning, hence my first question above.

 

(Please note that I use the term "apparent volume" as I have never had the eqiuipment available to accurately compare levels, relying soley on my ears.)

 

Tuning reeds mounted in the same chamber seems to pose problems. Some years ago I attempted tuning a couple of double reeded concertinas, both Lachenal anglos, with each reed pair in a common shoe. Attempting to achieve some sort of tremolo, I found that the acceptabe "pleasantness" of the tremolo sound failed at way below the amount of tremolo of a factory tuned Hohner 2 row melodeon; at A above middle C (440 hertz), where the Hohner differential is around 20 cents, there appeared to be no blending of the two frequency sounds whatsoever, sounding almost like two quite separate notes, and quite unpleasant to the ear. Reducing the differential in stages to 10 cents made little difference in the acceptability. At less than 10 cents, one or other of the reeds failed to sound! Why, I don't know, but it seemed a persistant problem on other notes too at varying pitches across the range of the concertina.

 

(I eventually gave up on both these concertinas and they were subsequently sold, unrestored, to collectors. One was 26 button, the other a two row; sorry Randy, I didn't record the numbers).

 

I have encountered the same problem in some early Italian melodeons where the sound chambers are not separated right down to the bass of the reedblock, a design feature that I completely fail to understand.

 

I did once examine a huge 48 Wheatstone Aeola English with tremolo tuned double reeds; however, the reed pairs were srandard reeds and shoes and in adjacent chambers, though opened by a single pad. No such problem with those reeds; some one else had recently tuned it very nicely to a tremolo about half Hohner factory (10 cents at A), so I didn't undertake any further tuning adjustments. If it had been needing work, or if it were mine, I would have tried adding a little more tremolo as an experiment, but the opportunity wasn't there.

 

Judging by the apparent rarity of double reeded English-made concertinas, I believe that the tuning problems I encountered were perhaps found by others, during manufacture or early retuning attempts, and possibly the reason for their unpopularity and lack of production.

 

I would be very keen to hear of the results achieved with double reeds by other repairers.

 

I have heard tell of an octave tuned Wheatstone somewhere over here in Oz, but, like the bunyip, I have never seen it, so don't know the reed pan configuration.

 

German-made double reeded concertinas are usually octave tuned, again reeds in separate chambers. They seem to sound well, unison tuned, subject to the usual poor construction methods used on such concertinas. And of course bandoneons use a similar set up with success.

 

My 10c worth....

 

And apologies to Nick, whose original question I have completely failed to adress! But having failed to achieve a good outcome on two occasions, I'm not sure I should be giving advice on this, and would welcome some answers myself!

Edited July 29, 2010 by malcolm clapp

[mike byrne]

I have a twin reeded Wheatstone 20 button Linota, the two reeds per note are in seperate chambers with one button operating a double pad on each lever.

 

 

[malcolm clapp]

I have a twin reeded Wheatstone 20 button Linota, the two reeds per note are in seperate chambers with one button operating a double pad on each lever.

 

 

 

A far more sensible arrangement for double reeds than the Lachenals I've seen, and much more tuner friendly I would imagine.

Mike, is this a standard size body, 6 1/4" across the flats? Also wondering how yours is tuned; dry or tremolo?

[mike byrne]

I have a twin reeded Wheatstone 20 button Linota, the two reeds per note are in seperate chambers with one button operating a double pad on each lever.

 

 

 

A far more sensible arrangement for double reeds than the Lachenals I've seen, and much more tuner friendly I would imagine.

Mike, is this a standard size body, 6 1/4" across the flats? Also wondering how yours is tuned; dry or tremolo?

 

 

When I first got the concertina I think it was 'mussette' tuned and sounded too much like a melodeon, it has been re-tuned to a much dryer sound.

It has eight fold bellows and is 7" across the flats No. 32389.