English or Anglo

[shaunw]

Maybe it seems to have got out of hand but I would want to remind everyone of your original question

 

'So. The questions in short: Is the 30key Anglo fully Chromatic and is the English concertina suited for ITM?'

 

This was a very simply question that deserved an honest answer free from musical politics. And the honest

answer is 'No the 30 key Anglo is not fully chromatic and yes you can play Irish Traditional Music on an

English concertina.'

 

But many people who posted here were unwilling to give this honest answer because their own political

definitions of ITM exclude any concertina except the Anglo. When you asked your question, were you aware

of the politics attached to ITM or the fact that this abbreviation has been hijacked so that it no longer

refers to 'Irish Traditional Music'.

 

If some of the people who replied had said 'No we don't allow the EC in ITM then that would be fine, instead

they tried to hide their politics by pretending that the EC just didn't sound right. They dodged the question

about the Anglo being fully chromatic by either lying and saying that it was or by rambling on about Boers

playing jazz on 40 key Anglos.

 

So now at the very least you are aware that politics has entered Irish music and before you go to a festival

make sure that you don't take the wrong instrument. If you do they will throw you out which is a sorry state

of affairs for Irish music.

Edited July 16, 2010 by shaunw

[david_boveri]

"this one time, at concertina camp...."

[JimLucas]

But many people who posted here were unwilling to give ... honest answer because their own political definitions....

Pot calling kettle black?

They dodged the question about the Anglo being fully chromatic by either lying and saying that it was or by rambling on about Boers playing jazz on 40 key Anglos.

"Lying"? ... Pot definitely calling kettle black.

Shawn, I'm the only one so far who brought up the Boers playing jazz, and my one relatively short paragraph on the topic was hardly "rambling on". More significantly, it was not in any way a response to "the question about the Anglo being fully chromatic", but a direct rebuttal (part way down this fairly long post) to your claim that "if the original questioner wants to play jazz standards then he needs an English Concertina."

 

As for the anglo being chromatic, the first response was clear, concise, and accurate: "The 30-key anglo is chromatic over two octaves, but not over its entire range."

 

I could go on, but I won't waste more of my time.

However, I would advise you,

shawnw

, to beware of the Big Billy Goat Gruff.

P.S. I also play Irish music on the English.

[shaunw]

I still regard your answers as not being entirely honest. Chromatic over two octaves is not

the same as being 'fully chromatic'. Stories about Boers playing jazz on 40 key Anglos does not

help the questioner since I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK or Ireland and

I'll bet you haven't either.

 

How many keys do you think jazz players use? I'm glad to hear that you play Irish music on an

English Concertina but why didn't you contribute that fact as part of an honest answer to the

original question.

 

Billy goats don't bother me but perhaps you should keep looking over your shoulder.

[Azalin]

Shaun, does your life depend on 'being right' ???

[David Levine]

I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK or Ireland and I'll bet you haven't either.

 

shaunw, You are revealing your lack of knowledge on many levels here. It would have been far wiser had you asked if any of us had seen 40 button Anglos for sale in Ireland or the UK. In fact, we had one for sale in our shop in Miltown Malbay two weeks ago. 40 button Anglos are hardly rare or scarce items. You would not then have presented yourself as such a know-it-all.

[Azalin]

I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK or Ireland and I'll bet you haven't either.

 

shaunw, You are revealing your lack of knowledge on many levels here. It would have been far wiser had you asked if any of us had seen 40 button Anglos for sale in Ireland or the UK. In fact, we had one for sale in our shop in Miltown Malbay two weeks ago. 40 button Anglos are hardly rare or scarce items. You would not then have presented yourself as such a know-it-all.

 

Reminds me of many engineers coming out of school and applying for jobs. They are confident that they know everything, but we ask them simple questions about concrete, practical things and they don't have a clue. It shows the gap between theory and actually being there on the 'field'.

[PeterT]

I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK

I used to own two, both bought in sunny Sidmouth; now happily in new homes, with other C.net members.

[Chris Drinkwater]

Does this topic deserve an award for the most number of pages (11 so far) devoted to a topic, in such a short space of time?

 

Chris

[Leo]

Does this topic deserve an award for the most number of pages (11 so far) devoted to a topic, in such a short space of time?

 

Chris

Hi Chris

 

Not yet, but it's getting close

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=854

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=4827

 

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5232

 

Thanks

Leo

[JimLucas]

Chromatic over two octaves is not the same as being 'fully chromatic'.

Agreed.

Nor did it claim to be.

The answer was not only perfectly honest, but far more informative and useful than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

Stories about Boers playing jazz on 40 key Anglos does not help the questioner since I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK or Ireland and I'll bet you haven't either.

You lose the bet.

Now what do you owe me?

How many keys do you think jazz players use?

Musical keys?

All of them have been used, though I'd guess (I'm not an expert in jazz) that the bulk of the standarcd repertoire concentrates on about a third to a half of the twelve available (equal-tempered) keys.

"Keys", as in buttons on the instrument?

All or nearly all of them, though some more than others. But jazz players definitely make much greater use of the third ("accidental") row on a 30-or-more button anglo (and of the fourth row on a 38-or-more button anglo) than most players of Irish or English traditional tunes or songs, or even than those who use the anglo for non-jazz pop standards.

I'm glad to hear that you play Irish music on an English Concertina but why didn't you contribute that fact as part of an honest answer to the original question.

shaunw, you fling the word "honest" around like someone who doesn't appreciate its true value.

 

As for why I didn't "contribute that fact":

• I thought the subject was being covered more than adequately by other responders.
  
• I was not in the mood to grind any particular axe.
  
• And in this post, I already gave further reasons.

Billy goats don't bother me but perhaps you should keep looking over your shoulder.

Why?

I like to see

where I'm going

.

I

know

where I've been.

[JimLucas]

Does this topic deserve an award for the most number of pages (11 so far) devoted to a topic, in such a short space of time?

I'm only getting 5 pages.

I think there must be a setting where one can set the number of posts to be displayed per page.

 

In fact, I vaguely remember setting it to the maximum allowable value sometime in the distant past, but I no longer remember either when or how.

[John Wild]

I think there must be a setting where one can set the number of posts to be displayed per page.

In fact, I vaguely remember setting it to the maximum allowable value sometime in the distant past, but I no longer remember either when or how.

 

Click on the down arrow next to your name at the top right of the screen

click on my settings

select the forums tab

 

there are 2 boxes - one to select the number of posts for each topic page, and one to select the number of forums topics in a forum page.

 

the maximum for each is 40.

 

regards

 

John

[shaunw]

I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK or Ireland and I'll bet you haven't either.

 

shaunw, You are revealing your lack of knowledge on many levels here. It would have been far wiser had you asked if any of us had seen 40 button Anglos for sale in Ireland or the UK. In fact, we had one for sale in our shop in Miltown Malbay two weeks ago. 40 button Anglos are hardly rare or scarce items. You would not then have presented yourself as such a know-it-all.

 

You are talking nonsense as usual. I did not say 'I KNOW that 40 button anglos have never been sold in the UK or Ireland.

I said I HAVE NEVER SEEN one for sale, a very different thing. So your implication that I am presenting myself as a know it

all is another attempt to avoid your own failure to answer the original question that started this thread, honestly and

without prejudice. Perhaps you also know of some gigs where a wide range of jazz standards will be played on these 40

button Anglos. If so please tell us where the next one is.

Edited July 28, 2010 by shaunw

[Azalin]

[shaunw]

Shaun, does your life depend on 'being right' ???

 

No it doesn't. Does your life depend on being wrong? However I don't mind a good argument and

I dislike the musical fascists who try to tell us how we MUST do things and what instruments

we MUST use for Irish traditional music. It is a simple truth that Irish traditional music can

be played on any sort of concertina and anyone who denies that is either ignorant or a liar or

a politician. The Anglo concertina is more limited and therefore less suitable for Irish music

than the English and Duet concertinas.

In the end the truth will prevail, so I have no worries about being wrong or right, I just try

to be honest.

Edited July 28, 2010 by shaunw

[shaunw]

Chromatic over two octaves is not the same as being 'fully chromatic'.

Agreed.

Nor did it claim to be.

The answer was not only perfectly honest, but far more informative and useful than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

No it was irrelevant and unhelpful.

Perhaps you failed the read the original question. The questioner asked 'Is it fully chromatic?'. So a simple no

from you was all that was required.

 

Stories about Boers playing jazz on 40 key Anglos does not help the questioner since I have never seen a 40 key Anglo for sale in the UK or Ireland and I'll bet you haven't either.

You lose the bet.

Now what do you owe me?

 

Nothing since we failed to agree on a monetary amount in advance of the bet.

 

How many keys do you think jazz players use?

Musical keys?

All of them have been used, though I'd guess (I'm not an expert in jazz) that the bulk of the standarcd repertoire concentrates on about a third to a half of the twelve available (equal-tempered) keys.

 

They use all the keys, as in musical keys and they have to be able to modulate from one key to another.

 

I'm glad to hear that you play Irish music on an English Concertina but why didn't you contribute that fact as part of an honest answer to the original question.

shaunw, you fling the word "honest" around like someone who doesn't appreciate its true value.

 

You are wrong, I really do appreciate its full true value but I wonder if you do.

 

As for why I didn't "contribute that fact":

• [*]I thought the subject was being covered more than adequately by other responders.

[*]I was not in the mood to grind any particular axe.

 

If you don't want to answer the question then you shouldn't post at all. The original thread started with a simple question,

it was nothing to do with grinding axes. It just required a simple honest answer to help the questioner.

[David Levine]

This thread should be renamed" The Return of the Bollix."

 

The Anglo concertina is more limited and therefore less suitable for Irish music than the English and Duet concertinas.

 

I'll tell Noel, Tim, Dympna, Edel et. al.. It's probably not too late for them to switch to a more suitable concertina. Too late me for me though. I'll just have to muddle along on my unsuitable Anglo.

 

Don't go away, Shaun. You're obviously needed here to set things straight.