Same Old Question,i'm Sure

[david dufficy]

I appreciate the advice you all have been giving. I have noticed the different arrangements of the anglo style buttons, parallel to the flats of the box and however you would describe it when the button rows have the point of the box perpendicular. I also have not quite been able to decide on which system to try. As a complete musical novice I am looking for a not toooo complicated system to learn on. Part of me thinks that the the English Jackie from concertina connection would be perhaps the way to go.

Melodies and ballads as opposed to lightning fast jigs etc. I think are more my speed. Thanks again and I look forward to reading more.

Dave

[Christopher Quinn]

I started off by buying a Hohner 30-button Anglo about five years ago. It cost £280 and as such is a "cheap" concertina, prone to sticking buttons. It has done the trick of getting me interested but I reached the limitations of the instrument ages ago and it is falling apart.

 

If you buy a cheap concertina you will soon feel the urge to upgrade and decent concertinas are expensive. I still haven't upgraded, instead I spent my hard earned money on getting a good melodeon - you get a lot more for a few hundred pounds with a melodeon, and you can play the same sort of music.

 

If I knew what I know now I would have started with a Hohner two-row melodeon which can be got for a very reasonable price. The instrument is more robust and this "cheap" instrument (in its D/G version) is used in public performances by John Kirkpatrick who in my book is the no. 1 player. You are far less likely to be dissatisfied or discouraged by learning traditional music on such an instrument.

 

Hopefully I will be able to upgrade to a better concertina one day.

[Chris Timson]

I still haven't upgraded, instead I spent my hard earned money on getting a good melodeon - you get a lot more for a few hundred pounds with a melodeon, and you can play the same sort of music.

Unfortunately there's a deal of truth in this. A lot of people have spent a lot of time wondering how to square this particular circle. We're not yet there....

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

...you get a lot more for a few hundred pounds with a melodeon [than with a concertina], and you can play the same sort of music.

Unfortunately there's a deal of truth in this.

This depends a great deal on what kind of music you want to play. As the music you try to play becomes more complex (accidentals, specific harmonies, key changes, etc.), you're likely to reach the limitations of the melodeon much sooner than those of a 30-button anglo. (On the other hand, a standard 2-row melodeon is capable of much more than most players try on it, anyway.)

Edited June 8, 2004 by JimLucas

[Chris Timson]

a 2 1/2 or 3 row melodeon can be fully chromatic in the same way as an anglo, and still cost an awful lot less than the equivalent anglo. Even 2 row D/G melodeons usually have a Bb and G#, maybe even an F natural, secreted away on the keyboard somewhere. But I think the point being made is that the quality of a first or starter melodeon is much higher than the equivalent anglo for less money.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

a 2 1/2 or 3 row melodeon can be fully chromatic in the same way as an anglo,

Not when it comes to chords.

 

...and still cost an awful lot less than the equivalent anglo.

Sigh! Yes.

It's hard, realizing that when I got my D/G Erica (melodeon) an entry-level 30-button C/G Lachenal cost about the same or less. (Well, eBay didn't exist yet, and I'm not sure whether Noel Hill was yet teaching outside of Ireland.) Then again, during my early Morris days -- 30 years ago -- in America, D/G melodeons were so rare that they could command double the price of an equivalent G/C.

 

But I think the point being made is that the quality of a first or starter melodeon is much higher than the equivalent anglo for less money.

Two "claims" were made. That was one, and these days it's quite true. I was responding to the other one, which I think is more context-dependent.

[Jay Lamsa]

OK - I have what is a "silly beginner question". I play chromatic instruments (piano, piano accordion, english concertina) so I'm used to playing in whatever key the music is written in. When looking at the so-called* diatonic instruments, they seem to come in a confusing array of keys. What are the drivers for selecting a concertina in C/G vs. D/G or Bb/F or D/A or a melodeon in B/C or C#/D or any other combination they offer?

 

Thanks

J

 

*I say so-called because I have heard people argue that they can get most keys out of some diatonic instruments. Don't know, as I don't play one.

[Chris Timson]

What are the drivers for selecting a concertina in C/G vs. D/G or Bb/F or D/A or a melodeon in B/C or C#/D or  any other combination they offer?

Melodeons I can't comment on, but there is quite a long discussion at this site here, which I can thoroughly recommend for all things melodeon. It's worth looking here because we in England have a somewhat D/G blinkered approach to the melodeon or button accordion.

 

There is a vocal Irish school of thought that you can only play Irish music on the C/G anglo. I don't know about that, but I tend to react unfavourably to people who make comments like that, and on the old forum there was quite a discussion from people who play Irish music on the G/D. For English music, usage seems to be fairly evenly split between C/G and G/D players.

 

Other keys have special uses. For instance, a lot of C/G players like to play Bb/F when playing solo, because the lower key gives a less squeeky sound. I love C/G baritone (that's an octave lower than usual) for song accompaniment. and so on. Doubtless others will give other examples and uses. As much as anything, it's what you feel drawn to.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

What are the drivers for selecting a concertina in [some particular key]?

Your personal desires... and who you listen to.

That latter is both for music to learn and for advice.

 

There are those who insist that only a particular instrument be used for a particular kind of music, e.g., C/G anglo for Irish trad. But then there's Grey Larsen, who says he's never played any but a D/A, and he's been playing longer than some of the current session crowd have been alive. There are those who prefer G/D for English folk, because so many of the English dance tunes are in G and D, and it simplifies the chords. And a singer will often pick an instrument to make chording easy in the keys that best suit their voice. But if you want to play more than simple chords, or genres like blues, jazz, or klezmer, or even Playford tunes in their "original" keys, then it's wide open.

 

...I have heard people argue that they can get most keys out of some diatonic instruments.

With more than two rows you can generally get pretty clear on melodies in any key. Chords are a horse of a different color, though I would say that a standard 30-button anglo has far more possibilities than a melodeon with 8 or even 12 bass buttons. "Irish-style" button accordions in B/C, D#/D, and the like are even better for chromatic melody work, but no better than melodeons for chords. (But then, most people who play them hardly use the left hand.)

[Dave Weinstein]

You can play Irish music on almost anything.

 

The drawbacks come in when you start looking at instruction, and articulations and ornamentations which are particularly easy on a C/G but may not be on another instrument.

 

The advantages of a C/G for Irish music:

 

o Most instructional material, and most instruction opportunities assume a C/G Anglo

 

o The set of available instruments (both modern and vintage) is much larger, and covers a broader brice range

 

o It is easier to duplicate the conventions and articulations of musical influences if you are using a similar layout

 

o Much of what is considered "Irish concertina" playing is based upon the strengths and limitations of the C/G instruments

 

One note: I am unconvinced of the "and you can play anyone's instrument" argument in favor of the C/G, given the wide variations of the accidental row. I don't play a C/G, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Given that most Irish music is in sharper keys (especially G and D), G/D instruments would seem to have an advantage. However, many of the G/D 30 key layouts lack duplicate C#s -- a problem if you want more fingering options.

 

I started with a 20 key Lachenal G/D, and ended up with a rather unusual G/D (details in my signature, as always) built by Bob Tedrow to my design. It has the advantage that it does precisely what I wanted -- it is built for G and D (although it can play in any key with effort), and it is built to maximize fingering options, fully 85% of the range in D is playable in either direction.

 

This does, however, leave me off in unexplored territory as far as instruction (workshops, materials, etc), and eliminates any chance of finding the perfect instrument in a second hand shop somewhere.

[Rick Ruggiero]

They end up moving away from the optimum position and project out of their holes like a rednecks teeth. 

What an analogy! I will never look at my crooked Hohner buttons the same way again!

[Alan Day]

Robert you mentioned earlier about the buttons sticking as they are sliding on the arm,at this point apply the silicone oil mentioned earlier you will find an immediate difference.I repeat do not put it on the button face as your fingers will slip off the buttons and use it sparingly,just a light smear is all that is required.It will increase the button speed and that Jeffries or other you had in mind can be put off for a week or two.

Al

[david dufficy]

Well, I've gone and done it! After sifting thru all the advice I bought a used Hohner 20 button from the HTM. I must say that Wendy was extremely helpful. She went thru the used instruments and found a very nice Italian made Hohner in mint condition. I am having a blast trying to play it. If I do say so myself, I can now play a mean version of 'The Saints Go Marching In'. (guess my learn to play book) So thanks for all the advice and I'll be back with endless questions I'm sure.

[Helen]

Have lots of fun, David.