To Bush or Not to Bush.....

[varney]

I've been noticing my 30 key mahogany ended Lachenal is getting a little more clackety - probably from good healthy practicing! On closer inspection the buttons seem to fit reasonably snugly in the holes as they pass out through the ends, well enough to make me wonder if it's at this point the noise if being created or further in with the mechanism. The lever bushings all seem pretty sound ( I did a few of them myself ).

 

Would it be worth bushing the button holes to try and eliminate the clackety sound? I know this was raised in some previous threads but I'm not sure it was ever fully resolved. If I were to bush the holes does it mean having to drill the existing holes slightly bigger? David Leese points out in his book that these holes are not simply conical but slightly wider or the interior up to around 1mm from the outer opening. What would be the best way to maintain this tapering?

[Ardie]

Since increased clacking may be related to 1) the end plate and worn bushings 2) the button/lever and worn bushings 3) the guiding pins, particularly if worn 4)hardened pads 5) metal mechanism, the lever/post connection 6)springs... reconditioning of all of this may reduce noise.If you start with 1) you can widen the button holes a little and introduce slightly thicker felt but if it isn't tight enough it may result in more instability and clacking so the best may be finding something like the original

[Pete Dunk]

you can widen the button holes a little and introduce slightly thicker felt but if it isn't tight enough it may result in more instability and clacking so the best may be finding something like the original

 

Why would you do that? If the concertina is already bushed around the keys then the only question would be if those bushings are now worn out and need replacing.

 

Oh and varney, David Leese supplies concertina spares, the Concertina Maintenance Manual was written by David Elliott.

[varney]

Thanks folks...........the instrument doesn't have bushed buttonholes so it's not a case of re-doing those.

 

The list of possible causes is lengthy and I wondered if there was a usual cause which people have found as the main source of this button clatter? Bushings missing or deteriorated would certainly strike me as an obvious cause, but I can't see how springs would contribute much to this unless they become loose and then surely would result in more apparent problems with playing?

 

I notice some of the little felt washers under the buttons are missing so again I'd imagine those as definite causes of rattle.

 

Thanks Tallship......I did mix up the two Davids....

 

Michael.

[Ardie]

you can widen the button holes a little and introduce slightly thicker felt but if it isn't tight enough it may result in more instability and clacking so the best may be finding something like the original

 

Why would you do that? If the concertina is already bushed around the keys then the only question would be if those bushings are now worn out and need replacing.

 

If it is unbushed you may either widen the holes and add bushings (but it may be tricky to find the perfect thickness and hardness of felt) or you may replace the probable ca 6mm buttons with 5mm ones and add bushings using 'standard' quality felt which may vary as well.

If bushed before it also can be tricky finding the ideal felt quality and widening the holes a little can make the procedure easier but maybe a little bit hazardous in the long run as I said.

[Ardie]

 

...but I can't see how springs would contribute much to this unless they become loose and then surely would result in more apparent problems with playing?

Michael.

 

All parts of the mechanism may cause noises, more or less audible, you may be surprised!

[d.elliott]

...but I can't see how springs would contribute much to this unless they become loose and then surely would result in more apparent problems with playing?

Michael.

 

All parts of the mechanism may cause noises, more or less audible, you may be surprised!

 

As a matter of interest, define 'clackety'........

 

When does it exhibit its self? on key pressing, or on key release? Some keys or all keys? LH side or RH side

 

Are the keys bone, plastic or metal, I am guessing not metal.

 

Dave

[varney]

Hello Dave,

 

I've examined the noise that is being made and found the following:

1. A sharp click on pressing certain buttons.

2. A softer click on releasing certain buttons.

3. A combination of both on certain buttons

4. Some buttons don't have a click but a slightly 'pipey' popping sound which I guess is the pad tapping the hole?

 

The noise is randomly distributed between both sides and on various buttons.

 

The buttons are bone as far as I can tell in that they're very old in appearance and are slightly pitted in places which I imagine plastic wouldn't be.

 

Thanks,

Michael.

[d.elliott]

Hello Dave,

 

I've examined the noise that is being made and found the following:

1. A sharp click on pressing certain buttons.

2. A softer click on releasing certain buttons.

3. A combination of both on certain buttons

4. Some buttons don't have a click but a slightly 'pipey' popping sound which I guess is the pad tapping the hole?

 

The noise is randomly distributed between both sides and on various buttons.

 

The buttons are bone as far as I can tell in that they're very old in appearance and are slightly pitted in places which I imagine plastic wouldn't be.

 

Thanks,

Michael.

 

First thoughts:

 

Item 1. is possibly the leather end of arm bead/ glue striking the underside of the action box cover, particulalry on the long lever arms, also check the under key dampers. Check maximum key travel to be @ 3mm (1/8")

 

Item2. possibly pads are getting a bit hard?

 

Item 3. as above

 

Item 4. agreed, but some pads will get quite percussive as item 2.

 

I would check key travel distances, then pad conditioin, and then damper condition; but please remember that a totally silent action is almost impossible. The instrument you describe is not top of range and will be more prone to action wear and 'slop'. I would NOT modify for bushing. You can do this, but be prepared for a lot of misery and frustration. More than your beloved instrument would justify. Bone rubbing on wood works well.

 

Dave

[Ardie]

First thoughts? Tell me Dave, why don't you just as well guess that all 1-3 might be related to the buttons themselves? or any of the other possible causes?

1 is rather easy to identify since it only occurs if the full travel is performed

2 is expected to be present with the pads generally isn't it?

Unbushed buttons always rattle a bit more than bushed ones don't they? That of course does not mean that every un-bushed instrument better be bushed, I agree.

[d.elliott]

First thoughts? Tell me Dave, why don't you just as well guess that all 1-3 might be related to the buttons themselves? or any of the other possible causes?

1 is rather easy to identify since it only occurs if the full travel is performed

2 is expected to be present with the pads generally isn't it?

Unbushed buttons always rattle a bit more than bushed ones don't they? That of course does not mean that every un-bushed instrument better be bushed, I agree.

 

Ardie, do I detect a bit of frustration?

 

1. true, but most people don't look at the pad travel and potential impact on 'button down', they spend ages looking at the key, I have experienced lever ends tapping under the action box cover, a lot more than once.

 

2. true, but the initial problem is 'clacky', implying a more percussive sound, so if some keys have soft noises & some are harder then this may result from pad hardeneing and variations in pad felt and surface condition resulting from the fact that 80% of play will be from 20% of the keys & pads and thus deterioration will not be equal on all pads (Pareto's law)

 

The 'rattling' as you describe it is mainly prevented by the constant spring pressure and the firmness of the lever arm through the cross bush; and in play, the finger pressure itself. Rattling is not the symptom reported. If you are concerned about excessive float on a key, please check the cross bushing.

 

Finally.

 

Why not home in immediatly on the key? experience, 30 to 40 concertina's a year, I cannot call to mind a case of a direct key issue causing excessive noise of this nature. I have seen hard and reduced damper stacks being noisy, or even causing the key pegs to tap gently or bind in thier guide holes. I have also seen missing cross bushings causing keys to fall over and malfunction. I have seen key guide pegs fail through excessive play between key and action end plate. However 'clacky'? I don't really think so, but I may be wrong.

 

First thoughts: because they are the first things I would check, and be fairly sure of resolving the issue.

 

One last point, you do see one or two felt bushed bone keyed concertinas, but usually they are not felt bushed, they work well without. The big problem, from reaming and re-forming key holes, or on making new bushing boards is that of 'through alignment'. The key hole has to be co-axial with the key cross bush, and the peg guide hole, and wood does not ream evenly due to the grain structure. Also, the polish chips.

 

 

Dave

[MichaelF]

Hello Dave,

 

I've examined the noise that is being made and found the following:

1. A sharp click on pressing certain buttons.

2. A softer click on releasing certain buttons.

3. A combination of both on certain buttons

4. Some buttons don't have a click but a slightly 'pipey' popping sound which I guess is the pad tapping the hole?

 

The noise is randomly distributed between both sides and on various buttons.

 

The buttons are bone as far as I can tell in that they're very old in appearance and are slightly pitted in places which I imagine plastic wouldn't be.

 

Thanks,

Michael.

 

I know it's difficult to describe sounds. Could 4 be the sound of a valve - especially if it has become curved - hitting the wood as it seals the slot? Old or curved valves can be slow to move and I have found that this can cause an irritating 'plop'. Try replacing the appropriate valve with a new one.

[JimLucas]

2 is expected to be present with the pads generally isn't it?

In my limited experience with instruments where pads have deteriorated, the deterioration is rarely uniform among the pads in a given instrument, and its distribution can seem pretty much random.

 

Unbushed buttons always rattle a bit more than bushed ones don't they?

Not in my experience. In fact, buttons of either type rarely "rattle" at all.

[Ardie]

2 is expected to be present with the pads generally isn't it?

In my limited experience with instruments where pads have deteriorated, the deterioration is rarely uniform among the pads in a given instrument, and its distribution can seem pretty much random.

 

Unbushed buttons always rattle a bit more than bushed ones don't they?

Not in my experience. In fact, buttons of either type rarely "rattle" at all.

 

Pads - of course the "deterioration" is not exactly the same all over but most likely time in combination with constant pressure when the instrument is not played has greater influence than playing itself, and hardly "random".

Rattle - no matter which word you use for it hard materials make more noise than soft ones and unbushed buttons more than bushed ones.One probable reason for having the bushings anyway, apart from friction, but that is relative.Wearing of the buttons may be another reason.I guess everyone notices greater playing comfort with bushed buttons?

[varney]

Thanks to you all for some enlightening discussion on this query.

 

It's given me several pointers on what to try and I'll update this thread later with my progress.

 

Michael.