Hybrid concertina with interchangeable reed pans ?

[david fabre]

Last year Wally Carroll has presented this "double" instrument with two

sets of reed pans, providing both a C/G and a Bb/F in a single one :

 

http://carrollconcertinas.com/40.html

 

I'm wondering if this would also be possible for instruments with accordeon-type reeds.

What is the opinion of makers of hybrid instruments present on this forum ?

[TomB-R]

The holder (flat) for whichever set is spare does look rather nice on the Carroll site!

 

I'd have thought there's no great problem in principle, obviously the layout would have to suit the larger, lower, reeds. I guess the main issue is that most hybrids are built with reed cells on the back of the action board rather than a separate reed pan, but interchangeable "reed pans" that screw to the back of the action boards would seem feasible.

[Jewish Leprechaun]

Well it might be a little harder. Take a look at the thin slivers of wood between the reeds on Bob Tedrow's site.

http://hmi.homewood.net/twitterzephyr/zephyr3/

Like concertinas with traditional reeds, you need a leather gasket in there and I think it's going to be awfully difficult getting a good gasket on those thin slivers of wood.

I was working on a miniature hybrid concertina last summer and was planning to make it with interchangeable reed pans. So I made the reed pans separate from the action board then screwed them on pretty tightly, there was still plenty of space for air leakage. I didn't want to go to the trouble of trying to get a leather gasket to work, so I ended up gluing them on.

 

-Lep

[Eric Barker]

I too have wondered about interchangeable reed pans. In specific I am curious about interchangeable reed pans in the limited range Hayden concertinas. One could spend years on the 46 key instrument. At some point one might desire to play in some other keys using the same fingering. Instead of purchasing a heavy expensive 80+ key instrument one could buy the next 46 keys and play it exactly the same way but with different keys. The same thing could be accomplished with 3 Elise concertinas. One reed pan for folk and one for jazz etc... I should get back to my studies now. Thank you! Eric in Montana

[TomB-R]

Well it might be a little harder. Take a look at the thin slivers of wood between the reeds on Bob Tedrow's site.

http://hmi.homewood....zephyr/zephyr3/

Like concertinas with traditional reeds, you need a leather gasket in there and I think it's going to be awfully difficult getting a good gasket on those thin slivers of wood.

I was working on a miniature hybrid concertina last summer and was planning to make it with interchangeable reed pans. So I made the reed pans separate from the action board then screwed them on pretty tightly, there was still plenty of space for air leakage. I didn't want to go to the trouble of trying to get a leather gasket to work, so I ended up gluing them on.

 

-Lep

To have a chance of working I think one would need a backing board to the "reed pan" with holes matching the holes in the action board. The thickness of the combined assembly would then be an issue.

[michael sam wild]

How sensible!, with a slot in cartridge you could modulate mid tune

[Frank Edgley]

Such a thing would certainly be possible with removable reedpans, but I doubt the practicality. If you are at a session, and someone changes to a key that you could more esily play with another set of reeds, it would be probablimatic to say,"Hold on while I take my concertina apart and install new reedpans"....even more so if you are out on a gig. I know that during the times when there was more than one "concert pitch," performers would have several reedpans available so they could match the pitch of the piano on hand, but it would be changed only before the performance. It is possible that you may say," Well, on this gig, we are only going to be playing in Bb and F, but I doubt that this is ever going to be a big factor. All the "professional level" anglo players I know that occasionally play in different keys have a second (or third) concertina. Expensive, yes, but practical. Or you could be like John Williams and learn to play a C/G in all keys. That, too, is really not practical for most of us.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Frank Edgley

[michael sam wild]

Or get an iPhone English app! set up for pipes and drones

[david fabre]

Such a thing would certainly be possible with removable reedpans, but I doubt the practicality. If you are at a session, and someone changes to a key that you could more esily play with another set of reeds, it would be probablimatic to say,"Hold on while I take my concertina apart and install new reedpans"....even more so if you are out on a gig. I know that during the times when there was more than one "concert pitch," performers would have several reedpans available so they could match the pitch of the piano on hand, but it would be changed only before the performance. It is possible that you may say," Well, on this gig, we are only going to be playing in Bb and F, but I doubt that this is ever going to be a big factor. All the "professional level" anglo players I know that occasionally play in different keys have a second (or third) concertina. Expensive, yes, but practical. Or you could be like John Williams and learn to play a C/G in all keys. That, too, is really not practical for most of us.

 

I agree that if it is your main instrument, it will not be very practical to have to constantly switch the reeds.

On the other hand, if you own more than one I think it could be a good idea to have one like this.

For instance, I manly use my C/G but there are some circumstances where I'd prefer to use G/D ; there are also

a few (and different) circumstances where I'd like to have a Bb/F as well. So having a "switchable" G/D - Bb/F

in addition to my main, non-switchable C/G would make sense to me.

 

The other advantage is that my wife is severely controlling the number of instruments I'm allowed to buy ;

so with such a "double concertina" I could cheat her by buying two in place of one

 

David

[Dan Worrall]

Well....I built one with removable reedpans, in 2006-2007. It was a prototype for a 40 button wooden ended GD hybrid, and had a removable reed-pan,as you can see. The idea wasn't so much to allow reed-pan swapping, but to play around with the tone a bit. At first, I waxed in the reeds, but didn't like the reed response...not a good enough contact with the wood. So I replaced the wax with screws. That worked a bit better. I was very happy with the overall design, woodwork, air seals, and bellows, but less so with the action I made and with the overall response of the reeds...not as quick as I wanted. It needed a lot more thought on reed chamber design, and more skill in setting reeds and installing actions, among other things. Still, not a bad first prototype/proof of concept, and I think with more work and a lot more time I might have made it good enough. As it was, I slowly lost interest and moved on to other things. It was a fun project, though.

 

As far as the removable reed pan goes, I agree with Frank that if the intent was to be able to have two reedpans for one concertina, that would be just too much trouble. It would take about 10 careful minutes to swap the reedpans, and of course the reedpans themselves are very fragile and vulnerable when not in the concertina...here I'm talking mainly about the exposed reeds. That operation done in the middle of a raucous session would be totally impractical. Moreover, consider that the reeds themselves are a large part of the expense of an instrument (in a concertina-reeded instrument, of course, they are the bulk of the value of the instrument). Best to buy a second set of buttons and bellows, in my view.

 

Cheers,

Dan

][attachment=5341:2007_0323newConcertina0009.jpg

[TomB-R]

That's some lovely and extremely craftsmanlike work there Dan! I'd been hoping to see more pictures of that one!

 

All the centre of the "fretwork" looks to be separated from the outside, how is it supported? From behind the baffle material?

 

 

[Dan Worrall]

That's some lovely and extremely craftsmanlike work there Dan! I'd been hoping to see more pictures of that one!

 

All the centre of the "fretwork" looks to be separated from the outside, how is it supported? From behind the baffle material?

Thanks, Tom.

 

The outer case with its fretwork was made from a sandwiched slab of cherry on top and an ebony-like dark wood beneath; the precision router cut through the cherry to expose the underlying ebony for the Pueblo Indian fretwork design. In places, as you can see, the router was programmed to cut all the way through. A future task was to continue to cut more and more through the ebony for more soundholes, until I got the tone I wanted. Never finished that experiment. Obvously, if I cut out all the holes it would need support from the inside, which I was prepared to add. Or, I could have opened up the sides a bit.

[michael sam wild]

My son said why not make a square ended concertina then you could slot in a cartridge like a video into a slot.

 

I showed him a few photos of old ones and said they weren't as iconic as hexagons or octagons. has anybody made their own box like that recently?

[ragtimer]

I too have wondered about interchangeable reed pans. In specific I am curious about interchangeable reed pans in the limited range Hayden concertinas. One could spend years on the 46 key instrument. At some point one might desire to play in some other keys using the same fingering. Instead of purchasing a heavy expensive 80+ key instrument one could buy the next 46 keys and play it exactly the same way but with different keys. The same thing could be accomplished with 3 Elise concertinas. One reed pan for folk and one for jazz etc... I should get back to my studies now. Thank you! Eric in Montana

 

The only design that I think might work would be to attach the ends as in the Stagi Hayden Duet -- using little nails that stick in from the sides, rather than screws.

 

THe entire end would be interchangeable, so when you switched to another key, the only part in comon would be the bellows.

 

So that doesn't save a lot fo money or transportation space, tho the Stagi nails would let you change ends in a minute or so.

 

I'd say get two or three separate concertinas, or go MIDI

 

But -- with plastic moulded reeds, you could indeed make a thin slide-in reed pan. And moulded palstic reeds are far better than people think. See that other thread.

--Mike K.

[michael sam wild]

With precision moulding and good gaskets it would be nice.

 

I've seen harmonicas where you slot in a reed block rather than carry a bag of 'harps' around.

Edited January 31, 2010 by michael sam wild