David & Deborah Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Wheatstone Mini English Concertina almost 80 years old. Looks to be one of a kind. Product code is R1. Serial # 32324. Has tortoise shell ends. It has been checked out by someone who has been in the business for 25yrs and they (undisclosed name) said they have never seen one like it. It is very rare, so we are told by a few people because they can not make them with tortoise shell anymore. Please email at currentdj@hotmail.com for any questions. See attached pictures. It has the original case which is a little tattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Wheatstone Mini English Concertina almost 80 years old. Looks to be one of a kind. Product code is R1. Serial # 32324. Has tortoise shell ends. It has been checked out by someone who has been in the business for 25yrs and they (undisclosed name) said they have never seen one like it. It is very rare, so we are told by a few people because they can not make them with tortoise shell anymore. Where are you located? At least in the US, there's a chance it might even be illegal for you to sell it to anyone but an antique dealer who has a special license from the federal government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David & Deborah Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Wheatstone Mini English Concertina almost 80 years old. Looks to be one of a kind. Product code is R1. Serial # 32324. Has tortoise shell ends. It has been checked out by someone who has been in the business for 25yrs and they (undisclosed name) said they have never seen one like it. It is very rare, so we are told by a few people because they can not make them with tortoise shell anymore. Where are you located? At least in the US, there's a chance it might even be illegal for you to sell it to anyone but an antique dealer who has a special license from the federal government. It was to my understanding that if it was already produced then there would not be an issue with selling it to anyone even in the US. I will definately check into it though & post what I find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzirtzi Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 What sort of condition is it in - does it play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Wheatstone Mini English Concertina almost 80 years old. Looks to be one of a kind. Product code is R1. Serial # 32324. Has tortoise shell ends. It has been checked out by someone who has been in the business for 25yrs and they (undisclosed name) said they have never seen one like it. It is very rare, so we are told by a few people because they can not make them with tortoise shell anymore. Where are you located? At least in the US, there's a chance it might even be illegal for you to sell it to anyone but an antique dealer who has a special license from the federal government. I don't want to put a spoke in the wheel but you may wish to consider the following regarding the use of tortoiseshell as a material. Tortoiseshell or tortoise shell is a material produced mainly from the shell of the hawksbill turtle, an endangered species. It was widely used in the 1960s and 1970s in the manufacture of items such as combs, sunglasses, guitar picks and knitting needles. In 1973, the trade of tortoiseshell worldwide was banned under CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species), and like items made from ivory, unless they are proven to be over a hundred years old, may be siezed by customs officials if discovered on importation, confiscated, and even destroyed! That would be a sad end to an exotic concertina. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Wheatstone Mini English Concertina almost 80 years old. Looks to be one of a kind. Product code is R1. Serial # 32324. Has tortoise shell ends. It has been checked out by someone who has been in the business for 25yrs and they (undisclosed name) said they have never seen one like it. It is very rare, so we are told by a few people because they can not make them with tortoise shell anymore. Where are you located? At least in the US, there's a chance it might even be illegal for you to sell it to anyone but an antique dealer who has a special license from the federal government. I don't want to put a spoke in the wheel but you may wish to consider the following regarding the use of tortoiseshell as a material. Tortoiseshell or tortoise shell is a material produced mainly from the shell of the hawksbill turtle, an endangered species. It was widely used in the 1960s and 1970s in the manufacture of items such as combs, sunglasses, guitar picks and knitting needles. In 1973, the trade of tortoiseshell worldwide was banned under CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species), and like items made from ivory, unless they are proven to be over a hundred years old, may be siezed by customs officials if discovered on importation, confiscated, and even destroyed! That would be a sad end to an exotic concertina. 100 years old, eh? So they'll have to wait a little less than 21 years before they can carry it around the world, but at least they'll be able to prove its age from the Wheatstone ledger. Really, it's not that simple. One can apply for permission to transport or even sell such an article, but one must apply separately to an agency in each country into which it's to be taken (including your home country, if you bring it back), and as far as I know there's not even a central registry of the agencies with authority. And though the CITES treaty was ratified by many nations, the treaty itself is not law, but is instead implemented through individual local (i.e., national) laws, whose wording may differ from or even contradict that of the treaty. I've been told (though not by a lawyer or legislator) that under the US law "exemptions" (i.e., permission to sell) may be granted for individual sales of items made from endangered species before the law was enacted, but that only businesses -- not individuals -- may apply for such exemptions. And that law covers sales within the US, not just international ones. I hope that's not true, and that -- as many believe -- a sale of a single item from one individual to another is automatically exempt, IF it can be verified that the item was produced before the CITES treaty was signed. But I would want to be very sure before risking the confiscation and destruction of a beautiful instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miikae Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I did hear of the case of an antique grand piano some time ago that was imported to the US from the UK that was totally distroyed by the customs officials as they had removed all of the Ivory key faces, thus rendering a valuable antique as virtual scrap. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I think it could be a georgeous little thing once worked over (and I don't mean by stripping off the tortoiseshell). If I played English and had some spare loot I'd be asking about it, although I'm not sure whether it would ever be much more than a novelty. It must have been made for a 'Turn' mustn't it? I thought when they had a special customer they usually noted the fact in the ledgers but there's nothing there I could see. I wonder who such a special thing was made for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David & Deborah Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) What sort of condition is it in - does it play? Yes it plays very well & has already been looked over by a shop up in Mass. That is when the product code was located & found that it was R1. In searching the ledgers, there were no other notations of finding any others made. It is in very good condition and only has a bit of wear from the placement of the thumbs. All of the workings inside have been checked over. Edited November 21, 2009 by David & Deborah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David & Deborah Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 I think it could be a georgeous little thing once worked over (and I don't mean by stripping off the tortoiseshell). If I played English and had some spare loot I'd be asking about it, although I'm not sure whether it would ever be much more than a novelty. It must have been made for a 'Turn' mustn't it? I thought when they had a special customer they usually noted the fact in the ledgers but there's nothing there I could see. I wonder who such a special thing was made for? The concertina was a gift from a nun over 35 yrs ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David & Deborah Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Wheatstone Mini English Concertina almost 80 years old. Looks to be one of a kind. Product code is R1. Serial # 32324. Has tortoise shell ends. It has been checked out by someone who has been in the business for 25yrs and they (undisclosed name) said they have never seen one like it. It is very rare, so we are told by a few people because they can not make them with tortoise shell anymore. Where are you located? At least in the US, there's a chance it might even be illegal for you to sell it to anyone but an antique dealer who has a special license from the federal government. I don't want to put a spoke in the wheel but you may wish to consider the following regarding the use of tortoiseshell as a material. Tortoiseshell or tortoise shell is a material produced mainly from the shell of the hawksbill turtle, an endangered species. It was widely used in the 1960s and 1970s in the manufacture of items such as combs, sunglasses, guitar picks and knitting needles. In 1973, the trade of tortoiseshell worldwide was banned under CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species), and like items made from ivory, unless they are proven to be over a hundred years old, may be siezed by customs officials if discovered on importation, confiscated, and even destroyed! That would be a sad end to an exotic concertina. 100 years old, eh? So they'll have to wait a little less than 21 years before they can carry it around the world, but at least they'll be able to prove its age from the Wheatstone ledger. Really, it's not that simple. One can apply for permission to transport or even sell such an article, but one must apply separately to an agency in each country into which it's to be taken (including your home country, if you bring it back), and as far as I know there's not even a central registry of the agencies with authority. And though the CITES treaty was ratified by many nations, the treaty itself is not law, but is instead implemented through individual local (i.e., national) laws, whose wording may differ from or even contradict that of the treaty. I've been told (though not by a lawyer or legislator) that under the US law "exemptions" (i.e., permission to sell) may be granted for individual sales of items made from endangered species before the law was enacted, but that only businesses -- not individuals -- may apply for such exemptions. And that law covers sales within the US, not just international ones. I hope that's not true, and that -- as many believe -- a sale of a single item from one individual to another is automatically exempt, IF it can be verified that the item was produced before the CITES treaty was signed. But I would want to be very sure before risking the confiscation and destruction of a beautiful instrument. Thank you very much for the education. It has yet to be an issue with transport in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David & Deborah Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) What sort of condition is it in - does it play? The condition of the concertina is very good other than a few spots of wear from the thumbs. Yes it plays and has a beautiful sound. Edited November 21, 2009 by David & Deborah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David & Deborah Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 What sort of condition is it in - does it play? Yes it plays and is in very good condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musical priest Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Oh dear, I'd love to buy this little darling! But I couldn't stand the thought of the German customs tearing it apart ... Cheers Claus PS: If anybody knows of some other less dangerous Mini thats up for sale ... please drop me a line, will you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yes it plays very well & has already been looked over by a shop up in Mass. That is when the product code was located & found that it was R1. I'm surprised if they told you that, as it is incorrect. English-made concertinas are always marked internally R and L, for Right and Left, to aid in identifying parts, and Wheatstone's were one of several makers who used batch numbers (following those letters) to identify the component parts of a given instrument whilst it was being made - the batch number of this instrument (given in the ledger entry) is 1, and whilst it will therefore be marked R1 in the right-hand side, it'll say L1 in the left. What hasn't been mentioned so far is that there is some debate about whether these instruments are covered in real tortoiseshell, or if the material is actually celluloid. If it's celluloid, there is no CITES issue to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 What hasn't been mentioned so far is that there is some debate about whether these instruments are covered in real tortoiseshell, or if the material is actually celluloid. If it's celluloid, there is no CITES issue to worry about. If you assume it's celluloid and the government folks find out that it's real tortoise shell, what happens? Is that a gamble worth taking? There must certainly be a nondestructive way to determine which it is for sure. Spectroscopy, perhaps? The chemical composition of celluloid is quite different from that of tortoise shell. And while I can't speak for all instruments marked as "shell" in the Wheatstone ledgers, I know that at least one was real tortoise shell, because a goldsmith-multi craftsman friend repaired it for me some years back. The end had been both caved in and warped, and to mold the pieces of shell to the new end was a slow, delicate process. It's good that he knew the difference. He said that tortoise shell is safely deformable only within a very narrow temperature range, and treating it as if it were celluloid would almost certainly either crack it or burn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan3939 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Is it sstill available for sale? If so, pls contact me at agoldberg@crsmgt.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 There must certainly be a nondestructive way to determine which it is for sure. Spectroscopy, perhaps? The chemical composition of celluloid is quite different from that of tortoise shell. Quick field test for celluloid: rub hard with finger or soft cloth the friction generates a slight warming of the surface which releases the distinctive smell of celluloid. I don't know what sort of smell tortoiseshell might give in a similar test, but I'm prepared to bet its quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now