2Hz

[Alan Day]

I am normally a great believer in that if something works perfectly well ,leave it well alone.

I have recently been playing a lot of tunes with Will Fly Guitarist and I have not been happy about my CG box ,reeds not touched since I purchased it from Crabb about thirty five years ago. Now my style has changed a bit recently and I now play a lot softer and I am moving around the box a lot more

and it was certain notes that just did not sound right.On Sunday I decided to investigate it and dusted down my old Korg Japanese Tuner and checked the whole box. The interesting thing was that a number of the notes were slightly sharp , no more than 2HZ and when played hard would come down enough to make the reeds sound OK particularly when chord playing,I could notice no difference (at that time). The notes I thought were out of tune were not, it was the notes around them that were sharp.So what I was hearing was the maximum of 2HZ, (442)

It was one of those days in many where my tuning touch was perfect every note I tuned was spot on when put back into the instrument,in two hours I tuned the ten reeds that I was unhappy with. The result is wonderful, now a pleasure to play and I hope listen to.Afterwards you often wonder why you didn't do it before, this was one of those occasions.

Al

[Robin Madge]

I've just had a tuning session on my G/D and my Baritone C/G.

 

You put these things off and then afterwards you wonder why you didn't do it weeks ago!

 

robin Madge

[Rod]

I am normally a great believer in that if something works perfectly well ,leave it well alone.

I have recently been playing a lot of tunes with Will Fly Guitarist and I have not been happy about my CG box ,reeds not touched since I purchased it from Crabb about thirty five years ago. Now my style has changed a bit recently and I now play a lot softer and I am moving around the box a lot more

and it was certain notes that just did not sound right.On Sunday I decided to investigate it and dusted down my old Korg Japanese Tuner and checked the whole box. The interesting thing was that a number of the notes were slightly sharp , no more than 2HZ and when played hard would come down enough to make the reeds sound OK particularly when chord playing,I could notice no difference (at that time). The notes I thought were out of tune were not, it was the notes around them that were sharp.So what I was hearing was the maximum of 2HZ, (442)

It was one of those days in many where my tuning touch was perfect every note I tuned was spot on when put back into the instrument,in two hours I tuned the ten reeds that I was unhappy with. The result is wonderful, now a pleasure to play and I hope listen to.Afterwards you often wonder why you didn't do it before, this was one of those occasions.

Al

 

 

When I purchased my new Shire C/G Anglo thirty years ago the deal included the offer of a free re-tuning. I therefore assumed that this would probably become a necessity at some future date. After thirty years of almost daily use my ear has never detected the necessity for any re-tuning. I guess that the fact that I only play to amuse myself and consequently at low volume has played a part but I am also curious to know why a solidly constructed concertina, played with restraint,and carefully stored in conditions of unfluctuating temperature and humidity should ever require re-tuning. Perhaps others would say that my ear is deceiving me ? It seems to me that the tone of my instrument has improved with the years but that the tuning has remained constant.

[RatFace]

I noticed recently that in the group I play (cello) with, we didn't sound quite "right". I tend to tune to my electronic tuner, and the gamba/lute/harp players share theirs. It turned out that their tuner is just under 1Hz different to mine (we have a long-standing discussion on which is correct!), and that is enough to make a significant difference. It is a weekly challenge for me to remember whether I should be tuning to 439 or 441!

[Alan Day]

I noticed recently that in the group I play (cello) with, we didn't sound quite "right". I tend to tune to my electronic tuner, and the gamba/lute/harp players share theirs. It turned out that their tuner is just under 1Hz different to mine (we have a long-standing discussion on which is correct!), and that is enough to make a significant difference. It is a weekly challenge for me to remember whether I should be tuning to 439 or 441!

Interesting that you can hear a difference of 1HZ,I thought it was special that I could detect 2HZ. I can certainly notice the difference now however. A much better balance as you suggest.

Al

[Greg Jowaisas]

1HZ = 4cents on a tuner which is 4% of a semi-tone or half step.

 

With a strobe tuner it is possible to tune (assuming you can keep the bellows pressure fairly constant) to within 1/2 a cent.

 

I think it is possible/easier to hear one note that might be as little as a cent or two off if everything else is in tune. It gets much more wiggly when a number of notes are sharp and flat. Play a note that is 2 cents sharp against a note that is 4 cents flat and you have a 6 cent or 1&1/2 Hz difference which can be quite noticable.

 

A concertina with reeds that are not well matched is a special challenge to tune. The reeds can react differently to pressure changes and the pitch drift is not uniform.

 

Throw in the compromises of even tempered tuning with its close thirds, the concertina's unique sound and it is a wonder any of us get any music done at all! At least that is what some of our family and friends think. We just keep on squeezing because we love the sound and feel of the instrument.

 

Greg

[Will Fly]

Al - the retuned box sounded great at Charlwood last night - bright and clear. A good job well done!

 

Will

[Henrik Müller]

...

and dusted down my old Korg Japanese Tuner and checked the whole box

...

 

Who calibrates the calibrator?

I am not trying to throw a spanner in the works, but when I saw the above,

I recalled that I have (probably) the same tuner. It is close to 30 years old

and I when I started to use it for tuning, I suddenly had the thought that

it might be out of tune (sorry about the pun...).

 

I checked it against a computer-generated 440 Hz and it was a bit off. My

analogue soul woke and said: "Hmm, there must be a calibration adjustment

somewhere". I took it apart and located a trimming potentiometer that was

locked with a spot of lacquer. I adjusted it so the indicator was zeroed with

the computer's 440 Hz. Locked it with new lacquer and tuned my instrument.

 

I hope that this will not kick off an endless "- but how do you know the

computer is correct?"-discussion

 

My personal view is: analogue electronics will drift with time and over thirty

years is is bound to have moved some. Computer-generated signals are

derived from the machine's clock generator (the heartbeat, if you want) and

that is crystal controlled, so I trust that more.

 

Try yourself?

Audacity can do it - "Generate/Tone..." . Have fun!

 

A less serious note

There's an old Danish revue song with a chorus theme that can be applied

here:

 

"Now, who calibrates the calibrator's daughter, when the calibrator is out

calibrating?"

 

/Henrik

[tony]

Tuning Fork?

[Alan Day]

"Now, who calibrates the calibrator's daughter, when the calibrator is out

calibrating?"

 

/Henrik

Not sure but somebody did because she had a little discrepancy.

Al

[Henrik Müller]

Tuning Fork?

I've kept forgetting to comments this...

 

Yes - that probably beats them all - once tuned, it's tuned...

/Henrik

[L'Albatroce]

Except that the temperature can make them go out of tune. My piano-tuner buddy claims electronic tuners are a godsend since you don't have to remember what temperature makes it sound 440. It's turtles all the way down.

[hjcjones]

I've just checked my Seiko ST757 tuner, which I've had for a good many years. Interestingly, the tone generated by Audacity seems to waver between spot-on and -1 cent, occasionally hitting -2 cents.

 

I've downloaded NCH Tone Generator software which seems to generate a more consistent tone. Using this my tuner now seems to be -1 cent. I use it to tune a hammered dulcimer (I'm not brave enough to tune my own concertina reeds) so this is well within an acceptable tolerance.

[Anglo-Irishman]

To go back to the original question (after all this time!): Interesting that you noticed the discrepancy when playing with someonme else. And a guitarist, at that!

Could it be part of the diatonic/chromatic dilemma? Diatonic instruments sound most pleasant when they're tuned Just, rather than Equal Tempered. Diatonic autoharpists, for instance, often use some form of meantone for instruments with 2 keys, e.g. C and G. However, good asutoharpists advise you to tune even a diatonic 'harp in equal temperament when you're playing with chromatic instruments, like guitars. Meantone tunings and equal temperament don't mix - some notes are noticeably disparate.

 

The Anglo is a diatonic instrument, meant to sound optimal in its two home keys - and I have the feeling that it is therefore tuned in some form of Meantone ex works.

 

I play Anglo a lot with guitar accompaniments in my group, and there are situations in which I find I have to adjust my bellows pressure on certain prominent notes to get a really consonant sound. The guitars can't adjust - their frets are equal-tempered.

 

I also notice - when playing concertina solo - that some chords on my chromatic Crane (well tuned in equal temperament) are rather "edgy", whereas the corresponing chords on the Anglo sound more "comfortable". Perhaps "straight up and down" Equal Temperament at A=440 is not really the optimum for Anglos. And perhaps ECs or Duets are better for ensemble work?

 

Cheers,

John

[Alan Day]

To go back to the original question (after all this time!): Interesting that you noticed the discrepancy when playing with someonme else. And a guitarist, at that!

Could it be part of the diatonic/chromatic dilemma? Diatonic instruments sound most pleasant when they're tuned Just, rather than Equal Tempered. Diatonic autoharpists, for instance, often use some form of meantone for instruments with 2 keys, e.g. C and G. However, good asutoharpists advise you to tune even a diatonic 'harp in equal temperament when you're playing with chromatic instruments, like guitars. Meantone tunings and equal temperament don't mix - some notes are noticeably disparate.

 

The Anglo is a diatonic instrument, meant to sound optimal in its two home keys - and I have the feeling that it is therefore tuned in some form of Meantone ex works.

 

I play Anglo a lot with guitar accompaniments in my group, and there are situations in which I find I have to adjust my bellows pressure on certain prominent notes to get a really consonant sound. The guitars can't adjust - their frets are equal-tempered.

 

I also notice - when playing concertina solo - that some chords on my chromatic Crane (well tuned in equal temperament) are rather "edgy", whereas the corresponing chords on the Anglo sound more "comfortable". Perhaps "straight up and down" Equal Temperament at A=440 is not really the optimum for Anglos. And perhaps ECs or Duets are better for ensemble work?

 

Cheers,

John

John in the past the stringed instruments have been taking their tuning from me (usually an A). I have also been playing in groups so the individual sound of my concertina is usually just part of the overall sound of the group. Will (Fly) tunes his guitar with one of those devices that clamp on to the end of the guitar which gives the tuning of the strings accurately. It was hearing the comparison of our tuning that did not sound correct and also some of the solo tunes recorded for you all on Cnet. On checking my tuning it was 2HZ that was the difference between us on certain notes.John it sounds as if you are hearing the same difference and forcing or reducing the sound to compensate for the tuning difference.Which was exactly what I was doing.

Al

[RatFace]

Meantone tunings and equal temperament don't mix - some notes are noticeably disparate.

 

I went to a concert by Michala Petri (recorder) and Lars Hannibal (guitar) fairly recently, and found the tuning to be quite painful. I can only assume that that was due to the tension between the equal tempered guitar and the naturally non-equal tempered recorder, and perhaps she wasn't always compensating as much as she needed to. It didn't seem to bother some people, but it did me!