Middle row versus Inner row

[david_boveri]

i apologize about the overall sloppiness,....

 

try and see if you can find where i jump (chop) and where i use an alternate fingering,....

How about

linguistic

sloppiness?

Where it was first used here, I understood "chopping" to mean an undesirable interruption or irregularity in the sound of the music, not the "jumping" of a finger, which was supposedly causing it. If you (David and others) start using "chopping" to mean "jumping", then how are we to distinguish jumping which doesn't seem to "chop" the sound, or a "chopping" effect which is caused by something other than jumping a finger?

 

Aside from that, I think it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

 

i agree with you. i use the word jumping. but i think that david was using the word chopping to describe what i was calling jumping, though i may have misunderstood. i agree with you that chopping is the wrong word--because you can obviously jump without being choppy, so it has an implicit assumption inherent in it. i was trying to be more clear by at least partially including his word, but i think i made things more unclear. i could have done it another way, such as, "see if you can find where i jump, and if it sounds choppy or not."

[Azalin]

i apologize about the overall sloppiness,....

 

try and see if you can find where i jump (chop) and where i use an alternate fingering,....

How about

linguistic

sloppiness?

Where it was first used here, I understood "chopping" to mean an undesirable interruption or irregularity in the sound of the music, not the "jumping" of a finger, which was supposedly causing it. If you (David and others) start using "chopping" to mean "jumping", then how are we to distinguish jumping which doesn't seem to "chop" the sound, or a "chopping" effect which is caused by something other than jumping a finger?

 

Aside from that, I think it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

 

i agree with you. i use the word jumping. but i think that david was using the word chopping to describe what i was calling jumping, though i may have misunderstood. i agree with you that chopping is the wrong word--because you can obviously jump without being choppy, so it has an implicit assumption inherent in it. i was trying to be more clear by at least partially including his word, but i think i made things more unclear. i could have done it another way, such as, "see if you can find where i jump, and if it sounds choppy or not."

 

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

But can we all agree that using jumping as primary basic 'technique' will certainly develop choppiness if overused?

 

That being said, back to my concertina practice!

[JimLucas]

But can we all agree that using jumping as primary basic 'technique' will certainly develop choppiness if overused?

Let's see: If choppiness develops, then that is a sign of overuse.

It's a circular argument, but why not?

[CaryK]

 

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

 

This is getting absolutely theological. There are "commandments"?

[david_boveri]

i apologize about the overall sloppiness,....

 

try and see if you can find where i jump (chop) and where i use an alternate fingering,....

How about

linguistic

sloppiness?

Where it was first used here, I understood "chopping" to mean an undesirable interruption or irregularity in the sound of the music, not the "jumping" of a finger, which was supposedly causing it. If you (David and others) start using "chopping" to mean "jumping", then how are we to distinguish jumping which doesn't seem to "chop" the sound, or a "chopping" effect which is caused by something other than jumping a finger?

 

Aside from that, I think it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

 

i agree with you. i use the word jumping. but i think that david was using the word chopping to describe what i was calling jumping, though i may have misunderstood. i agree with you that chopping is the wrong word--because you can obviously jump without being choppy, so it has an implicit assumption inherent in it. i was trying to be more clear by at least partially including his word, but i think i made things more unclear. i could have done it another way, such as, "see if you can find where i jump, and if it sounds choppy or not."

 

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

But can we all agree that using jumping as primary basic 'technique' will certainly develop choppiness if overused?

 

That being said, back to my concertina practice!

i dont think blanket proclamations are necessarily helpful. it all depends on what you are talking about: what style are we playing, and what sound are we going after? i play differently based on what type of music i am playing. i also think that skill level has a huge part to do with it: personally, i view jumping as an advanced technique, which is best utilized when one has very good control of the bellows and finger position. i also think it is more useful to know your alternate fingerings than to jump buttons. as i said before: jump only when you mean it. i think jumping because you know no other way of doing it is a mistake.

 

for me, the main consideration on whether or not you should be actively trying to jump very often is not whether or not you can wrap your head around WHEN to do it appropriately, but rather can you do it well? it takes a lot of bellows control to jump a note well without making it sound choppy, but it's worth it as it can offer that extra something for phrasing that you can't get another way, or if you want to get the sound of a particular reed over another that you can only get by jumping from the previous note. it also depends on which way you are jumping--i rarely would jump from d to A, but often from A to d. the trick of it all is actually not only in bellows control, but in finger placement, which personally i think is an inexorable part of bellows control. to really effectively jump first finger A in the C row (first octave) to first finger D push (second octave) in the G row, you really have to perform some finger acrobatics. sure, you can just jump up and call it a day, but really to do it smoothly, it usually works well to collapse the first knuckle of the pointer finger and then slide up to hit the d with the MIDDLE of the first joint (well above the pad) of the finger. this is counter-intuitive... you would think that hitting a button with the middle of your finger would be the wrong thing to do, but in this situation it is very effective. you wonder why do it? it's much easier just to use a different D or a different A, but there's a bite to that combination that you can't get in any other combination. this is of course not to say that you would do it always--this then gets into the consideration of when it is appropriate, which is another story. before you consider this, of course, you have to consider what sound you are going after, and how you are phrasing your notes. are you adding a lot of space between notes? how do you shape your notes? what fingerings do you use as your home base?

 

it is not a simple consideration, and i dont think the AMOUNT of it changes the quality of your playing, but rather when and why you are choosing to do it. i personally think that alternate fingerings are really essential to developing flexible technique, but i am not going to jump on some anti-jumping wagon. in general i don't teach it to beginning students, and actually will often teach someone to use an alternate fingering where i might jump a button.

 

so, i think that dogmatic proclamations are unhelpful, and that they just back you into a corner.

 

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

 

This is getting absolutely theological. There are "commandments"?

 

i agree. there are no commandments... i think it's a problem to have set rules and expectations, because then you have to "re-wire" when you change your mind. why shut it in the first place? i agree that once you learn how to use alternate fingerings that jumping looks to be this dark and evil place from one's place, but it is just as much a valid part of concertina playing as are alternate fingerings, switching positions, and cross-fingering. personally, i prefer to build up the base of ones playing on using alternate fingerings, and reserving cross fingering and switching position to when you get to the further regions of the instrument (i.e. away from the top), rather than having them be a mainstay of your basic, bread and butter. of course, this is not so relevant when considering british music, when i would consider jumping and changing positions an essential part of in-the-row playing.

[JimLucas]

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

This is getting absolutely theological. There are "commandments"?

I think Azalin was clear that that is a "commandment" he has made for himself, not one he's trying to impose on the rest of us. And since I was raised in a country where a person has a right to worship in his own way, I see nothing wrong with that.

[Azalin]

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

This is getting absolutely theological. There are "commandments"?

I think Azalin was clear that that is a "commandment" he has made for himself, not one he's trying to impose on the rest of us. And since I was raised in a country where a person has a right to worship in his own way, I see nothing wrong with that.

 

Yes, was just being ironic about my own rules... Now I need to go, it's time for my monthly ritual to keep the Dipper happy. A moose or deer should do!

[david_boveri]

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

This is getting absolutely theological. There are "commandments"?

I think Azalin was clear that that is a "commandment" he has made for himself, not one he's trying to impose on the rest of us. And since I was raised in a country where a person has a right to worship in his own way, I see nothing wrong with that.

i was raised in such a country, too, and we also reserve the right to hate what other people worship, lol. i hate your tolerant gods!

 

Good point, I use the word "chopping" too to describe "jumping", but you are right, jumping doesn not necessarily mean choppiness. I try not to ever, ever jump, as one of the concertina commandments, but when I am satisfied with my brain wires I guess I'll allow jumping for specific occasions.

 

This is getting absolutely theological. There are "commandments"?

I think Azalin was clear that that is a "commandment" he has made for himself, not one he's trying to impose on the rest of us. And since I was raised in a country where a person has a right to worship in his own way, I see nothing wrong with that.

 

Yes, was just being ironic about my own rules... Now I need to go, it's time for my monthly ritual to keep the Dipper happy. A moose or deer should do!

 

can you sacrifice a moose for me? my carroll gets skiddish around blood, but the concrtina gods require it...

[JimLucas]

Now I need to go, it's time for my monthly ritual to keep the Dipper happy. A moose or deer should do!

And I have other fish to fry.

 

Some nice filets of herring, to be specific.