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Hi all, I have a Scates english with what might be a prototype for the double pans (actually double sound boards in this case): merely two baffles of waxed card placed in the bellows frames interior to the normal reedpans. The baffles have small cutouts to let air pass from the bellows through the reeds and are signed on both sides "Extra sound boards, Joseph Scates, inventor." The instrument itself is rosewood with bushed ivory buttons (#449), has an unusual, transitional Dublin label, has nickel reeds in square-ended frames, and is in 1/4 comma meantone (more-or less, still). The late Frank Butler was of the opinion that it may have been one of a batch of early experimental (unnumbered?) Wheatstones bought and later (numbered and?) resold by Scates. I am not sure that Scates or Case did not make it, but hesitate to disagree with Frank, whose experience was unparalleled. The fretwork is a common early type with spreading vines in a ringlike arrangement. Paul

Paul:Goran,If I undstand you correctly, your three pinhole instruments all have riveted reeds Goran: Maybe I was unclear: 1) has original pinhole ends stamped Aeola 2) had originally pinhole ends (damaged) I don't know if stamped Aeola or not... now replaced by my own make masonite ends with "f-holes" 3) has original circular SSS fretpattern wooden ends, black All three have same kind riveted reeds I've examined two more of the 1) type, both with riveted reeds Paul:" I have seen the riveted reeds in rosewood, metal-button Wheatstone english concertinas from this period and I do like them. I think they have a very beautiful quality of tone. I don't have one to re-examine now, but I think the fitting of tongue to frame was not as precise as in the screwed-note reeded pinhole concertinas, and that the tongues were set (and needed to be set) a little high to work at their best. " Goran:Like I said, after 'trimming' they work very well...despite you do expect riveted reeds not to be possible to fit with the same exactness as screwed ones (while maybe more secure when once fitted). Since the reeds in these instruments still seem so good I see two possibilities: 1) they are *selected* for 'top of the line' - "professional" as they sometimes have been called- models or 2) they have been processed and fitted by the most skilled workers ...or both... Paul:"Both these features might be expected to very slightly slow the "attack" of the reed (or to necessitate a higher bellows pressure to achieve fast attack). Goran:The impression by myself (and associates) is that these (riveted) reeds are 'not quite as responsive' (slower "attack" as you say) as most later Aeola reeds. My interpretation is that it may be related to the found 1) shallower reed frames (obvious) 2) 'softer' metal used (??) 3) more profiled shape (?? ...have not tried to examine...) There are these factors involved: - if the metal is 'harder'=stiffer, with larger elasticitymodule, you have to increase the length or decrease the thickness for the same frequency but the 'density'(specific weight) is involved too and may be varied also - so you need to know the specifications of the actual reed metal to 'understand' the situation and that we don't.... Paul:"My speculation about temperament could be expanded as follows....... I was wondering (again this is a question, not a conclusion) if the "pinhole" fretwork with its attenuation of high harmonics (and thus, of the beating and the combination tones) might be a response to complaints that harmonies on the concertina had become harsh since the switch from meantone." Goran:Hm..I see...Well why not? At least I find it obvious that it was a directed attempt to 'mellow the tone' and seemingly the fretwork AND those specific reeds act in the same direction. The speculation is tempting in my view as we also find that the earlier 'art music' connection with the 'English' concertina established from its introduction went on just about up to 1880s and it is possible like you say that some of the tonal attraction was looked upon as lost. Around turn of the century the 'concertina band movement' and 'folk music' segment focused on other demands with more powerful rather than 'sweet' instruments too... Paul:"Alternatively, the development and utilization of the "extended treble" concept may have led to a demand for a sweeter tone on those very high notes (even when playing unharmonized melodies). This was my other speculation/question." Goran:I rather don't think so since those high notes actually are 'sweet' anyway!! (but you may not believe so since they sound so intensive) You know, you don't actually hear as many high overtones in the high octaves since they come outside the audible region and their amplitude is very small. The high frequency reduction effect due to the pinhole end type consequently is more influencial for the lower notes (producing up to 20 overtones, most of them irregular...) than the high ones!!! But of course those high notes will be a bit damped/muted too by the ends which is an effect I would say is detectable also, so what you say still may be quite right.... Paul:"I think these two questions can best be answered by the serious players of this instrument, those who have historical documents available, and perhaps the makers -- or all three working together. I'm just a tuner and anglo player!" Goran: One thing seems clear to me....The matter of "nice tone" with concertinas somehow has not been very prominent since long. I bet it was more so 'in the early days' ....but later on demands for "brightness" and "loudness" seem to have dominated. Among English players I believe favoured in band playing and among Anglo players to be heard outdoors and for dancing and for Duet playing one could more rely on polyphony/harmonies than 'tone' anyway.... Goran Rahm

I only had around 1/2 hr to make the observations, also with people talking in the bacj ground, the 20 cents above and below zero for the enharmonics was uncannily precise, although there was some small drift between notes on opposite bellows directions I think the figure stands. The 'A', 'D', and 'E' all registered as close to zero as made little difference, the 'F's were actually all closer to +12, and the 'G's closer to +8; but the conditions for measuremnet were not ideal so I rounded them a little. I have looked at your scale, and I need to work it out, I am not up on things like 1/4 comma meantone, I have never heard of this before. I have handled concertinas with unequal tempered tuning before, but this was my first attempt to record some data, I expected the difference, but not the degree, in the enharmonics, but not in the note fequencies Dave

FOLKS: just three little notes to the thread: (1) the mid-19th-century ledgers already show evidence of mixing and matching. . . . .there, what we call the "ends" are called "tops". . . . .and one occasionally sees an entry for a purchase in which the "pans" of one instrument are being matched with the "tops" of another. . . . . . to be sure, it's not an everyday event, but it does happen . . . . . .if memory serves me correctly, it might be that Regondi was involved in one of these entries (but my memory often does not serve me correctly).............................. (2) i too have an instrument that made its way to New Zealand. . . . .purchased for me by a friend in an antique store in Christchurch some years back. . . . .an 1850s Wheatstone. . . . .the original purchaser was Lieut. R. Peel. . . . .surely the Robert Peel who was the son of the recently deceased (1851???) prime minister of that name. . . . . the son was in the navy. . . . .and we know, from naval records, that he travelled to New Zealand. . . . . .the instrument still has its original brass reeds tuned in meantone style. . . . . .with A flat a bit higher than G sharp. . . .and E flat a little higher than D sharp. . . . . .i enjoy using it in the "Prayer" from Molique's Six Characteristic Pieces, which, being in E major, places a lot of emphasis on G sharp and D sharp. . . . .depending on which way the melody is going, i play the higher or lower pitch. . . . . .i always tell the audience about the instrument in advance. . . . . . .so that they don't think I'm playing out of tune. . . . . .when we did it three weeks ago at NY's Met Mus of Art, a specialist in early 17th-c music (particularly Monteverdi) came up after the concert and said he really enjoyed it: "it twanged my ear". . . . . . . . (3) will second Bruce's kind words about Wim. . . . . he just restored an 1868 Wheatstone for me. . . . .sounds absolutely wonderful. . . . . . allan

Dear Allan and all readers, This is really interesting to me and I hope others with access to these early instruments and records will follow it up. BTW I have read all your excellent postings but I have continued to post my responses to all related postings in the subtopic where the issue of meantone/ layout first came up, despite its unrelated title. On reflection I think you had a better idea in trying to start a new heading for this. Pauol

FOLKS: as a footnote of sorts to the discussion about the relationship between tuning (meantone) and layout of buttons. . . . . . . .someone mentioned that not all early concertinas had the duplicate buttons for A flat/G sharp and E flat/D sharp. . . . . . .and the question was raised about how that would affect, if at all, the tuning system. . . . . . . . . went through some old notes yesterday. . . . . . .and can report that Wheatstone treble concertina No. 500. . . . . . .sold to the music dealer Chappell and intended for delivery to one Mrs. Baillie has a detailed note in place of the usual reference to the number of buttons. . . . . . .the note reads: "g to c, without A flat and E flat". . . . . .now, i have never seen No. 500 (does anyone out there own it. . . .is it one of the concertinas in the Horniman Museum???). . . . . . so i don't know how many buttons it had. . . . . .but in the early 1840s one finds many concertinas being sold with 44 buttons. . . . . . . yet to omit all A flats and E flats would have meant -- and i calculate from the "standard" 48-button instrument (though there really was no "standard" yet in the early '40s) -- leaving out five buttons (not four), since the very highest A flat is not there anyway. . . . . . be all this as it may: it is still not exactly clear what effect the lack of A flats and E flats would have had on the tuning. . . . . . . .we don't know (at least i don't know) how the G sharps and D sharps were tuned. . . . . . and how, therefore, they would have sounded in pieces written in B-flat and E-flat major, for example. . . . . . .this leads to another question: just what music had already been conceived specifically for the concertina by this time (early '40s) and in what keys were the pieces written . . . . .it is difficult to date music from this period, since publishers generally did not include the date on the music itself. . . . . obviously, they cited themselves and gave their address (which can often help date the music, since publishers often moved around). . . . . . .most of the time, we can only go by the date of deposit in Stationers Hall or the date of acquisition in what is now the British Library. . . . . . however, there is no guarantee that these dates correspond precisely with the date of publication (though the best guess is that they generally did. . . . . .a very reliable guide to dating is advertising, since one doesn't advertise what one doesn't have for sale). . . . . . . assuming all this: the pickings were still pretty slim in the early 1840s. . . . . .even pieces that we know had been performed by this time -- for instance, Joseph Warren's (and he's a fascinating guy) "Grand Fantasia on a theme from Bellini's Norma", which Regondi premiered at the Birmingham Festival in 1837 (and with which he sort of put the concertina "on the map") -- were not, according to the British Library acquisition date, published until later. . . . . presumably when the consumer market had increased in size. . . . . . all in all, there is much that we don't know. . . . . . .and recognizing this is the beginning of wisdom................allan

For James Pamondon: James, haven't seen a recent post. Don't get discouraged. I, for one, have enjoyed your postulations and the responses they have evoked. I've learned about meantone tuning in the past week and been introduced to the scholarly research of Professor Atlas as a result of your questions and musings. We need the both the question askers and answer givers in this forum.

Tom, I was vaguely familiar with the notion of alternative tuning systems but unfamiliar with the term "meantone tuning" until I found this interesting set of web pages: Musical Tuning and Temperaments It includes a "musical calculator" that shows vividly how much various tuning systems deviate from the theoretical ideal. (The text says the calculator also generates tones so you can hear the differences, but so far I can't get this to work on my Mac.)

I think that this is a fascinating discussion. But I really have no idea as to what the terms "meantone" etc. mean. I think it might be helpful to explain to those of us with limited understanding of musical jargonomics. Thanks -- Tom

Sorry, in my previous post the word "meantone" should have been omitted after the words "Society of Arts." I'm afraid I still am not used to composing online.

GOOD FOLKS: Having only recently figured out how to access and -- more significantly -- respond to postings on the new forum site, I am preparing a response to some of the recent postings by James Plamondon. More specifically, I will be responding to (1) his queries about why the concertina lost popularity (about which I believe he is way off base); (2) his notions about meantone tuning and the layout of the buttons on the English concertina; and (3) his somewhat -- what shall I call them? -- unfair charges that the CSFRI is "hiding" its collection of English concertina music from the Victorian period. I hope to get to it all either tomorrow or the next day (by the weekend at the latest). Allan