ragtimer

Well, I paid some more attention today during my practice session, and I'm sorry to report that for me and my Stagi Hayden, the sagging of the bellows in the center, and subsequent twisting of the ends, seems to be the real problem, that requires some kind of support. Even with the bellows only one-third open, the ends try to twist in the hands. I tried resting one end on a knee, then the other end, but I found that I was comfortable playing only when the center of the bellows was supported across my thighs (sitting down). Standing up is out of the question for now. Yes, that wears out the bellows corners. So I'm careful to be wearing pajamas or my exercise pants, or to put a towel acros my lap to reduce friction. Maybe a chamois would be best, as others have noted. All comments welcome (besides "Don't expect me to buy your used tinas!") -- Mike K.

What they are saying is: THis device works the same as the good old Conn genuine strobe tuners, where you keep sounding the note, and twist the pitch-offset knob until the pattern holds steady. Then read the cents sharp or flat off the knob scale. I do this all the time when tuning my crank "monkey" organs. The only difference in this digital device is that you push and hold buttons, rather than twist a knob. But no, you can't just sound the note and expect the cents offset to show up on its own. As someone mentioned last year, this can be a big inconvenience if you need both hands to sound the note and can't spare one to tweak the offset knob. It also requires the offset knob to be nicely calibrated in cents so you can read it afterwards (which the digital unit under discussion apparently does down to 0.1 cent, excellent). I have a nice Korg digital tuner that reads cents offset directly, but its readings tend to jitter around, eeven during a steady tone from an organ or tina. So for serious work I use my good old Conn, which uses vacuum tubes to drive the strobe motor. "Digital" is how I play my tina --Mike K.

OK, that sounds good enough. You're right about how it doeesn't matter if the strap loop slips off once in a while. Just need to check it before starting each tune, since it would be real awkward if either side slipped off during play -- you'd have to sit out the rest of that tune. Funny you mention that -- I have just started to practice reversing the bellows more often, and in more appropriate spots in the music. I do tend to get long legato passsages, though, and the bellows can wind up pretty well stretched out. But sometimes I do just play bass and chords, and maybe don't even play the RH side. Now to hunt thru my closet for some suspenders ... This must have been SOME parade to watch! I hope someone shot video of the bass and cello. And here I thought the last laugh was the drum & bugle corps folks marching backwardds carying tympani for a separate player --Mike K.

Thanks! "Robust" is one of the nicest words I've heard yet for our Stagi Haydens I'm wondering about two things: First, how did you kep the suspeneder loop from sliding off the end, or conversely, sliding over into the bellows folds (where at least it might stay put, but at some risk to the bellows)? Did the loop pass thru the hand strap? I'm missing something here Other concern is that, whenever I try to play my Stagi standing up, when the bellows are fully open, their weight tilts the ends downward, and makes some buttons hard to reach, and adds a lot of strain to the wrists and hands. I think you'd need a strap around the center of the bellows to deal with that. In fact, some old tinas seem to have a center wood section with a strap attachment ring on top. Anyway, thanks very much for working up a solution to the problem. --Mike K.

One advantage of written music that has only been slightly touched on here, is that it gives you a place to write down fingerings (in whatever notation you choose). As I work a piece up to speed on my Hayden Duet, using the spots just as reminders, I find that I trip over lapses in fingerings -- running out of fingers because I forgot to substitute a finger for the "usual" one half a measure ago. So for me, learning a tune requires learning fingerings (unless the tune is simple enough to have no surprises). And to practice the corrrect fingerings, I need to write it down somewhere. If the tune is just in my head, I can't "apply directly to forehead" the notations Now, to contradict myself, I play a couple tunes of my own that I haven't notated, or at least haven't looked at the spots in months. And I did learn the correct fingerings by slow repitition of what worked. But I like having a piece of paper -- printed or handwritten -- to note things on. Including chord changes (a big thing with us Duetters). --Mike K.

The latter. See photos here. - W Thanks! Reeds waxed in just like a Stagi. But how about that radial lever action! And at a price not much more than a parallel German style action. --Mike K.

nyuk nyukk! That seriously cracked me up. That's probably the only window in history where someone could make that joke on this board.. well played! Thanks! Now if I could just play my Hayden Dueet as well ... --Mike K.

I'd venture to say that they made one, well, not a mistake, but an inconvinience to themselves, by gluing the reed blocks. If they could be removeable, like in Hohner Pokerworks, making a G/D, or any other tuning would be a breeze. Same with Baritone/Trebble. Easy swap. One of my prospective teachers a few years ago showed me his Hohner. It had both, left and right, cases split and held together by hinges and hooks (nice looking old style). So if the need be, he would simply unlock the box, flip it open, swap the reed blocks and put it all back together. All in less than a minute. I think between C/G and G/D you may easyly obtain both, if they would make it. But if you want more tunings, swapping the blocks is, perhabs, the answer. Fascinating! Reminds me of the old brass instrument players (especially French horns) pulling out all their Bb crooks and putting in C crooks (or whatever) to change keys for a different piece. Practically, I wonder if carrying the extra reed blocks (in a very specialized case) is that much easier or cheaper than carrying two concertinas. And changing reed blocks in a crowded pub after a few hours might void the insurance on the box Well, I guess the isntrument case would have compartments for the extra reeds, so it would be one large case. Does the Rochelle use metal plates with 5 reeds each? Or stand-off cells like a Stagi or an accordion? I am still tempted ... Mike K.

Also exactly my opinion.So Boney, are you also a Hayden Duet player?If so, what are you currently playing? A Stagi like mine? I just started learning the Hayden/Wicki duet about five months ago. It has a lot of promise, but I've mostly been just picking out melodies so far. Changing bellows direction is actually a bit tricky for me, coming from anglo -- it's strange to change because you want to, instead of because you have to! But it's starting to come more naturally -- sort of like learning to ride the air button on an anglo, eventually I'm sure it'll become mostly automatic. I do have a Stagi now, but I'd really like something nicer. When I go from the Stagi to my Wakker anglo, it's like going from driving a rattling delivery van with bald tires, to a sports car. A few more buttons would be nice too. OK, we have the same box. I use the air button only to begin a tune, or to put the box away. I like the large buttons on the Stagi, but they could be closer together. The action and reeds seem OK, but some springs are too stiff, and I don't have much else to compare it with. And we'd all love a few more buttons and notes! --Mike K.

A Jackie in Chicago? So you'll be playing Upper Wakker, not Lower Wakker:P --Mike K., a former resident of the 'burb of Wheaton, IL

Well, it figures iTunes would have format converters built in I don't have iTunes, and don't know if it will even install on Win98, but requires XP. My wife does have an iPod and iTunes on her WinXP laptop, so maybe I'll just use her PC for a few minutes when I need to convert something. You can hear nice MIDI arrangements of some of my compositions (but not the barrel organ versions) at my Web site: http://members.aol.com/knudsenmj/myhomepage/index.html I really need to install that software I bought and see what it can do re MP3. --Mike K.

I agree. Imagine those chords on both hands of a duet! Such sound! I've tried it a few times on my Hayden, and yes! Big sound! Now if it only had contrabass reeds ... Yes -- right now the cheapest Duet is a Stagi Hayden at about $850-plus. Would be nice if Wakker would try a Duet -- but one thing we Hayden owners would like is a few more notes and buttons, and Wakker tends to put fewer than normal EC on their Jack. (And if they made a G/D Rochelle I'd be very tempted to try Anglo). --Mike K.

Also exactly my opinion. So Boney, are you also a Hayden Duet player? If so, what are you currently playing? A Stagi like mine? Excuse me if we've corresponded before -- my mind/body are way out of warranty --Mike K.

Thanks, I'll take a look around the Web. I may also finally install a program I bought last year and have been sitting on. I like my Creative digital recording setup, but it seems to have run out of "free" MP3 conversions. Yes, old and new crank organs are around. Each year we have several rallies (get-togethers similar to Squeeze-Ins) where we take over a town park or amusement park and serenade passers-by and each other,, and trade music and lies. There's some crossover -- TanzBar self-playing concertinas and MIDI-driven accordions that you squeeze and act like you're playing. And some of us pack along "real" instruments, like baritone horns, tubas, and my Hayden Duet. We even play along iwth one of the big truck-mounted band organs (as found on merry-go-rounds). --Mike K.

I agrree, that if I were to try another duet system besides the Hayden I play now, I'd much prefer Crane/Triumph to Maccann -- but that's jsut me. I've alos thought there must be old Salvation Army HQ buildings with attics full of Duets -- wonder if anyone has checked any such sites? They'd lvoe to turn those old boxes into funds, I'm sure. And yes, I'd lvoe to see whoever came up with names like "Rochelle" and "Jack" find one for a Hayden or Crane Duet Unforch, they would probably have fewer, not more, notes and buttons than existing models. --Mike K.

Absolutely. I would love to hear Seasick Willie on 31-note crank barrel organ. How cool is that? What other tunes do you have? Why would you send me a midi file though. Is your organ a midi instrument? Might you send me an audio file so I could hear what it really sounds like? Thanks, Jody! ANd is it OK if I share the MIDI file of "Willie" with other organ grinders, for their amusement? I've arranged about 30 tunes -- my own rags and marches, some pop tunes, and some more traditional tunes by Susan Conger and others. Yes, my organ now has a MIDI interface that I built myself. Normally it plays from punched paper rolls, like a player piano. I used to punch my own rolls by hand (hours and hours for a minute of music). Now I can play it direct from my PC (to test arrangements) or from my Palm Pilot PDA for performances outdoors. Right now I don't have a way to compress WAV files (from my own recordings) into MP3, so I can't easily send or post a sound file. THe MIDI version is set up to emulate pretty well the sound of the organ. I'll check whether your new web page's "contact" link brings up my own emailer, in which case I can attach the MIDI file for you. Or maybe attach it to a posting right here (with your permission)? Oh yes -- I do still practice many of your tunes (Willie included) on my Hayden! --Mike K.

Hmm. I envy you then. I tried and hit the wall. And the EC is exactly opposite for me. I don't have much trouble figuring out the harmonic fingering, when I write the notes of chords down. It has to be wrteen though, and as I read, reading the dots is a curse of EC players. I guess it's not as intuitive as push/pull easy harmony of the Anglo. I guess it really is an individual, personal, thing. I can imagine that the EC is fairly easy to find 3rds and 5ths to make chords, but there's always the problem that thte next melody note will land in the middle of your chord fingers (not a problem if you're just making chords to accompany a group or your singing). I've tried finding chords on an Anglo, and some nice ones are there, but of course they vanish (or worse) when you reverse the bellows. Yet people like Jody Kruskal can play an Anglo like it's a Duet. It seems that everyone has found a way to do some chords to their own satisfaction on their chosen version of the instrument. So what works for you is best. I would still advise anyone who jsut wants to play chords, to pick up a Duet, especially since both hands can contribute to chord voicing, if no melody is being played also. --Mike K.

Any idea what language it was originally written in? I'd guess German, since "farmer" is confused with "builder" (Bauer). And that tortured syntax -- sheesh, even Japanese isn't that bad! --Mike K.

Hi Jody. I was your student at the NE Workshop two years ago, when I was just learning the Hayden Duet. I have both your CDs and they get a lot of play at my breakfast table (great way to start the day). Your new Web site is good -- more flexible than your CD-Baby site. BTW, I made an arrangement of your "Seasick Willie" reel for my 31-note crank barrel organ (often miscalled a HUrdy-Gurdy), and would like to email the MIDI file to you, and request your permission to play it in public on my organ, non-profit of course. I've enjoyed England -- sure you will even more. --Mike K.

I tried duets (McCann, Crane, Hayden), found Crane most to my liking, but also realised it better to be treated like a piano: with rigorous (more or less) study etc. Lack of time viered me off this manly instrument and ultimately brought to a dork's refuge - the peculiar English Concertina. It's so dorky, it'll be very good for a sweaty rock band. I play Hayden Duet and would disagree with the notion that it needs to be treated like a "serious" instrument, with years of rigorous study. Sure, one can approach it that way and become a virtuoso, but for the short term, the Hayden is an ideal way to start playing bass and chords with the left hand without too much study, and melodies are easy to pick out on the RH. And you can always play melody on the LH side when you want a darker tone. The public doesn't know one type of 'tina from another, so a Duet will look just as dorky and out of place in a rock band, as would an English As for squeezing your thumbs off competing to be heard, you'll probalby want to retrofit some sort of pickup and jack into the amp mixer, no matter what type box you wind up with. Happy squeezins -- Mike K.

Well Rich, when I got the announcement of the Workshop (which, sadly, I am tied up and can't attend), followed by the dozens of replies, I figured out what had happened. You had sent an announcement (which I don't consider Spam, so long as it itsn't done too often), that somehow got cross-fed into a classic email reflector discussion group setup -- so everyone's angry replies were going to everyone else, just flogging the hornets' nest a little more. I could tell this was not your intent, and it is fixed as of last nite, so no apology needed for me, Rich. So you may get back to working on that Hayden design --Mike K.

Sorry for not responding sooner. I've been off concertina.net for a couple weeks. I take it you've not seen this picture: It's me playing the MIDI Hayden mockup referred to in the post that started this thread. See also the 2nd post. Paul Everett, who built it, is on the right. If the furniture looks familiar it's because it's in the parlor of Bucksteep Manor at the 2001 NE Squeeze-In (before you started going, Mike). Is this not exactly what you had in mind? Hi David. It's awfully close -- I'd like a few more buttons on each side (wouldn't we all). And maybe have the two faces parallel, and put in a pressure sensor, and ... I did visit that "Gadget" web site some months ago, and was intrigued with the idea of building my own "silent tina." There's the Bulgarian named Jordan who sells the button-to-MIDI converter cards. As for Bucksteep Manor, I was prevented by family responsibilities from attending NESI again in 2005 and in 2006. Can't make Rich's workshop this April either, rats! --Mike K,

Well, that's good to know. Given the build-it-yourself thread, and that "Gadget" web site, one of us could probably whip up something useful, but without any expressiveness. Singing tenors, and classical guitarists, read treble clef but know that the notes are an octave lower. There's some argument among Duet players whether to notate the LH in such a treble clef, or to use bass clef. Depends on whether you already read piano music He'd rather be famous than rich? Worked for Guido 500 years ago, when he invented the basis of our current staff notation. Tho given how far his new notation is likely to go, he really should take the money! I agree, in that some days I just rest my LH and practice playing the RH melody with feeling and phrasing, getting to know it intimately. I would not want to play only an expression-less MIDI instrument. But for learning a piece and its fingerings, or playing under silent conditions, it would still be worth the money. I mean, $500 is chump change in today's concertina world You know, years ago a TV program showed heavily padded bags that musicians could put their instruments inside and still play them, but the sound was way muffled. There were two holes for your arms, and a hole by your mouth (which we would not need). This may be the real solution! Stay with it -- Mike K.

I do have to agrree with you -- that by tying their (partly) new instrument to their proseletising for a radical makeover of Western music education and practice, they are throwing a lot of heavy baggage in the way of getting the actual instrumenet out into people's hands. Now, a good marketing trick (that we would love) would be for them to start making and selling the instruments, bundled with an instruction manual using all their new ideas. That would let the horse pull the cart -- some of us might read the manual and get interested in their notations and theories, after seeing how much fun and use the instrument is. BTW, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea -- if/when a Hayden Duet tina with a few more than 46 buttons and better quality comes out, I will invest in the "genuine article." But a practice instrument that's silent and able to reproduce other instrument sounds is just too tempting Where did you get the $500 figure? Thummer Ltd's estimate, or yours? That sounds feasible, in mass production. ... Mike K

It sounds as if what you are looking for is already on the way in The Thummer Wow! They really do show a mock-up (or even a prototype?) of the sort of instrument I was imagining -- a pair of Wicki-Hayden keyboards laid out flat. Could be mounted like concertina ends, too. I didn't see anything in their "Project Status" about how far along the actual instrument is, but from what others have done, it could "easily" be built today. The musical analysis and theory are very fine, and I will spend more time on that part of their documentation later. I don't know that their new musical notation and staff format will get anywhere. But this really does show how great the Wicki-Hayden layout is. Thanks for the link -- Mike K.