DavidFR

What precisely is PVA glue? It's mentioned repeatedly in the Elliot book, but I've never heard of it and have no idea what it is or what PVA means. I used the hide glue because it was recommended to me for repairing cracks in the fretwork etc and the information I can find online appears to indicate that the original concertina makers used hide glue throughout. I'm not sure that I can go back now and fix this, as I've done over 2/3 of the repadding and I don't think I can take the pads off without damaging them.

That's interesting. My understanding has always been that rapper developed in the coal mines of northern England, but have never heard of any Irish association with it whatsoever. In the decade or so I've been dancing I've always been told or it's been implied to be a thoroughly English tradition. Anyone know of any research to support either claim? And yes, I've had some really interesting looks and questions when I've told people I do rapper dancing. The names are too similar!

I can completely understand your pain. I've been playing for rapper since I started playing rapper and that still happens, mainly when something even slightly distracting occurs or your mind wanders. It's tough to recover at that speed; the warm-up dance at DERT was one of the most embarassing extended moments of my life. I don't think there's one tune that was written with rapper in mind that lots of groups use, at least not for concertina. What I can and will do is provide you a more comprehensive list of what I've used, what I've got on a tape of old-time traditional rapper musicians, and the name of the tune that Tom Kruskal favors (if you want to PM me an address I can mail you a copy of that with chords, but good luck playing it at speed). There just isn't much variety in this, and it's never easy playing consistently at that speed.

I actually started playing concertina so I could play for my rapper team. Anglo actually works well for this; the key for getting up to speed (besides practice) is picking tunes that a) have long passages in a single direction and b ) have a couple notes in the opposite direction to fix your bellows. I'd suggest abandoning melody-right/chords-left style of playing when doing rapper stuff. It's difficult for us mere mortals to play that way at rapper speed. I've had the most success doing tunes in the Irish style with a little ornamentation and/or occasional chords where the melody crosses over from left to right and back. As both a rapper player and a rapper dancer I strongly encourage you to do a tune where you are playing all the beats. Rythmic chords are not important; rythmic playing with greater emphasis on certain notes is. I'm trying to increase my repetoire but even this meets resistance from dancers - while rapper is always done to a jig, some jigs are easier than others. My efforts to introduce "Lark in the Morning" haven't gone over well. Some jigs that work very well include Swallowtail, Ten Penny Bit, and the Blackthorn Stick. There are a couple more that I use which escape me at the moment. I got good marks for music at the '06 DERT, so I must be doing ok. By the by, some people may consider them "fiddle" tunes, but the fiddles tended to get drowned out in the pubs where we competed. Not a problem with the concertina! And I know that the Ceilis are fast enough to handle the tempo. Good luck! -David

Oh. Well that's a shame to be finding out at this point. I just took what was given me and pressed on. I don't think I can go back and fix it now.

I'm working on my own project - a brass-reeded English tutor - which will probably be pretty dreadful when finished, but I'm having great fun working on it and am learning lots. Every single pad needed replacing, and I got some from the button box (thanks Doug!) to replace them with. Then I went to replace them (using Dave Elliot's book) and noticed that I didn't have any of those smaller disks to put between the pad and the bead. Had a look at my good instrument and noticed it didn't seem to have those either, so, what the hell - I just went ahead and glued the pads directly to the bead! I'm using liquid hide glue (which took me a while to find), and making sure to scrape as much of the old glue off the bead/arm as I can. I may be using too much glue, but it's creating a very strong and stable bond as far as I can tell, so I don't think you really need those little bits. One thing - I'd suggest attaching the pad with the arm and button in place so that the pad is correctly aligned over the hole. The hide glue is tacky enough but stays dry long enough to put some on the pad and wiggle it around in place to make sure everything lines up. I'm sure the more experienced (at all experienced!) people will have more and better suggestions as well. Good luck! -David

Tom Kruskal I use him as an example since in your first post you speak specifically about a professional as someone who plays concertina as a living. You can hear Tom playing the C/G Jeffries on "Over the Water," available from the Button Box. He may also appear in another upcoming recording, but I'll post that on concertina.net if it actually happens. What I mean is that the basis of your whole argument - that many casual players buy expensive concertinas and then don't play them - is not borne out by any evidence you have so far presented, therefore my theoretical propositions are just as valid. I know/have heard of some people who have more concertinas than they can play on a regular basis, but as far as I know they had good reasons for originally acquiring those instruments and are very good players. I don't know of anyone who has a functioning Jeffries/Suttner/Wheatstone etc who doesn't play it regularly. If you know of anyone, let alone a large quantity of people who engage in this practice, I'd love to know. It would provide a more substantial basis for discussion. Who buys a concertina just for the sake of having one? The people who lay out $5,000-$10,000 and wait years for something they never even use must be a substantial minority. A concertina is hardly a status symbol for anyone who can't play the thing. And I do think a lesser box might not be as satisfying even if you aren't Noel Hill. If you fell in love with the concertina and more specifically that Jeffries sound (or Linota, or Carroll, insert appropriate favorite make here), and were willing to wait and make sacrifices to get it; I see no reason why you should be barred from doing so. I think the hypothetical person would receive much satisfaction from having been patient and having worked hard and long towards a goal. Look, I bemoan the lack of Anglo availability as much as the next person. I wish that I, too, had multiple top-level boxes due to my purchasing power or long tenure as a player. But I don't, and I don't begrudge them their instruments (except for the occasional snob who likes to rub it in your face, but they pop up in every walk of life and are thankfully few and far between). These players and enthusiasts have all contributed to the survival and revival of the concertina. They kept it alive between WWII and the recent revival, and are the sole reason there is any kind of market for concertina recordings. Let's just be thankful that the concertina continues to be popular and that a substantial group of people are making them.

Where to begin. I agree with your assertion that there is a shortage in top-quality instruments. Too many people want them, not enough people can get them. First, I don't think this is as dreadful as it sounds, because it means that love and appreciation of the instrument is spreading, it keeps current makers and repairers/restorers in business, and quite a few new makers are coming out of the woodwork (Kensington, Carroll, and Thomas just to name a few more recent arrivals). Second, I take exception to your classification of professional vs hobbyist. Some people make (or attempt to make) their living through music. My sister is in this category. Some people forever tinker around, picking it up once in a while to play a few tunes but never put serious time and effort into the instrument. A third group of people are serious non-professional players. I would put myself into this category. We've been playing in most cases a very long time (8 or 9 years in my case and I'm only 24), play almost every day, and try to increase our abilities and knowledge as best we can in the time outside work and other commitments. For them, concertina-playing is a true passion if not a vocation, and many of them are quite good. I hope he doesn't mind being used as an example, but Tom Kruskal (Jody's brother) is one of the foremost players of traditional English music on the Anglo concertina. In his professional life he makes fantastic jewelry which is sold in jewelry stores and jewelry departments around the world. Is he therefore not entitled to the three outstanding Anglos in his possession (G/D, C/G, Bb/F)? Third, as is alluded to in a number of posts, better concertinas are easier to play. This is an unfortunate fact of the instrument which you don't necessarily find with other types. Better instruments are easier to play and hence easier to improve upon. I think the vast majority of rank beginners start off with a beginner's instrument, be it a Stagi/Rochelle/junk Lachenal. They don't want to invest the money before they are ready to commit to the instrument. When they are ready to commit, however, why shouldn't they buy what they can afford? I think most players are able to accurately assess their level of commitment and buy appropriately, ie if it's just a casual hobby people are unlikely to go through the bother of a 4+ year waiting list for a top quality instrument. Fourth, I think your assessment of why there are so few top-quality vintage concertinas available is mistaken. You place excess blame on the "American collector." Do Americans exist who own one or more excellent instruments and don't play them as much as they deserve? I'm sure. But I think they're a minority. I suspect that the strongest demand for concertinas is in Ireland, and that in total numbers, more top-quality instruments, vintage or otherwise, will be found in Ireland than in any other country. Is this justified? The concertina was invented in England and most were built there. Shouldn't there be more in England? The Anglo concertina was derived from a German invention. Shouldn't they have more concertinas than anywhere else? Or what about the United States. We have more people than Ireland, England or Germany, are experiencing a strong Irish music and Morris/traditional dance revival. We assuredly have fewer concertinas per person than Ireland or England, why don't the Irish ship a few over here to address that imbalance? My point is simply that you can create any specious argument you like to redistribute existing concertinas among the interested population and find some sort of justification for it. I don't think you can justify an argument based on someone's skill level. Some people will fall in love with the concertina, scrimp and save to get that Jeffries or Dipper, practice every day and still not be very good. I don't think you can quantify the enjoyment that person will get from playing that box, or justify reducing it by apportioning them a lesser concertina. Part of their enjoyment is a result of the time, effort, and yes - money - they put into getting it. You can, I think, make an argument based on how often an instrument is played. Some people do amass more concertinas than they ever could or do play; some people put down the money and then decide later it isn't really for them after all. These people, and I don't know who they are, do have a responsibility in my mind to regularly assess what they've got and ask "Am I playing this instrument regularly? Does it fulfill a particular need for me (ie different keys for anglo)? Does it have any sentimental or historical value that warrants keeping it?" If the answer to all these is no, then I think there is a certain amount of responsibility to return that instrument to the pool. Maybe even in a private sale to an aspiring student who is, as you mention, trying to put together his or her first CD. And I meant to keep this short. Oh well. -David

By my count this makes 11 Jeffries Duets, all Jeffries Bros and Praed St models. Wow! For our historians - do we have any kind of numbers on how many Jeffries Duets were ever produced, and if they were all produced during the same period at that address? The way people talk about it you figure many of these must have been converted over to Anglo, but if this is the case and there are still a fair number out there being played, there must have been substantial demand for the system at the time. Perhaps they stopped production because other Duet models became more popular, but the Jeffries system must have had a substantial fan base at one time. I'd love to see one in the flesh (in the metal/wood/leather/paper?) sometime. -David

Chris, I am not sure I would completely agree with the blanket statement... certainly some Irish players don't like the 38 and 40 button instruments, but there are a few that play them... and even a few that choose them over 30 button instruments (Chris Droney choose his 40 button from all the instruments in the Wheatstone showroom.. though he probably doesn't use many of the extra buttons. Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh certainly chooses to play 38 button instruments and seems to use the extras... though I will grant that his playing is not necessarily typical of many concertina players.). -- Bill What is funny with some players of 38-button instruments is that you can tell which buttons they use on a regular basis and which for them are really "extra," at least if the buttons are metal (or metal-capped). The oft-used buttons stay nice and shiny from constant use and wear, while the less-used tend to corrode and discolor. Just shows you that people tend to stay in familar patterns even if their playing is otherwise unique and excellent! For my own preferences my ideal instrument would be at least a 33 button, with the extra three being the drone and alternate direction fingering for the f#s (on a C/G or equivalent in other keys), especially on the left hand side. I know that the best players (ie Noel Hill) are not limited by this lack, but I lack his skills and would be helped with that note the other way. -David

I don't know if he's still directly in the repair business or not, or if he would do tuning on instruments other than those he himself has sold, but I would recommend Paul Groff. I'm on my second Groff restored and tuned box would highly recommend his work to anyone. -David

I think I've seen or heard about a number of vintage single-action bass English concertinas, where the reeds are just so large and suck so much air that you only play on the push, then break and expand the bellows for another go. This could be fine for a bass instrument especially in a band setting playing mainly chords or accompaniment, but would be very detrimental on a melodic instrument since I imagine the bellows expansion would be a heavily interrupting event.

I've had Frank Edgley's book for a while and I highly recommend it. It's really fantastic for starting out on Irish concertina music. For me especially being more of an ear learner the inclusion of a CD was really great.

I can also recommend Morse and Edgley instruments, and I hear Tedrow has a very good reputation. They all fit in the same general price range and all have nice websites so you can check out their instruments online. I'm also a big fan of lower-voiced instruments, my current box is a Lachenal G/D. However, if your voice works better in certain keys (a la Chris Timson) and you definitely like the lower-pitched instruments, you may want to get a baritone C/G. This is just a C/G instrument pitched one octave lower. I know the Button Box (Morse Ceili) has offered these from time to time, and I imagine other makers would be willing to accomodate you as well though it might take a little longer. Their waiting lists are usually measured in months though not years, so I doubt the wait would be too bad. Good luck! -David

Well I think that's not really fair, everyone starts with zero feedback after all; how are you supposed to generate feedback before buying and selling things? Of course, for something with that kind of price tag I'd want some assurance that I was dealing with a legitimate, honest person. I'm not sure that Ebay feedback would really be enough for any large-ticket item like a concertina. The instrument itself looks quite nice, though I think it's more than what the really top Englishes go for. But I could be wrong! I know very little about them. It does look like the seller doesn't know much about concertinas though, given the paucity of information he provides. Maybe he just looked at what top "Wheatstones" were going for and priced this instrument based on the apparent good condition.

Paul, Second quote was from Judy. Sorry to have screwed that up. Both indicate that a veneer was used. I was just wondering what kind and if it was modified, as some other posters have indicated did occur. Only looking to satisfy my curiosity! -David

Well it seems that there is agreement on veneer over another kind of wood, most likely mahogany. Is this veneer likely to have been a different kind of wood from the base (ie rosewood over mahogany), or is it more likely to have been stained or painted to resemble a fancier wood than it actually is? I'm no expert on woods, but maybe you could take the instrument to an expert nearby to get an opinion based on actual examination. This topic seems to have stirred up so much debate in this forum that I, for one, would be interested in a pronouncement from an unrelated third party. No matter what wood it is and whether or not it's a "lower-end" model, congratulations on and best of luck with your new purchase. I think you got a very reasonable deal even if a couple buttons need a little work, and I think you'll get many years of enjoyment from the instrument. I played a similar-looking 20-button for a number of years (though with riveted action) and found it quite satisfactory during that time. Our Kensingtons might incidentally end up being part of the same batch, as I expect to receive mine in a similar time frame. -David *edited to fix the second quote box.

But painful to read. Subdivisions would be immensely helpful. I first started on the Suzuki method with violin. I played violin/fiddle, clarinet, and sang for a number of years with organized groups, all of whom placed significant emphasis on ear learning as well as being able to read music. For whatever reason, I have turned out to be an ok music reader, and a pretty good ear learner. And that's great, I can pick up on tunes pretty quickly. But especially for my morris playing, I wish I had paid more attention to theory class. When it comes to building chords and having them major/minor/diminished etc (along with that completely incomprehensible guitar-based tablature - what's a G7 supposed to be anyway? Isn't that where you put your peg in "Battleship?") I have not a clue. And I wish I did. So even if you focus on learning melody lines by ear, I suggest learning chord theory at the very least. Otherwise you'll have to play catch-up, like me.

I agree with you Jim, though if you look at the photo of the "pipes" through the far end of the bellows, it looks to me like they have a few different sizes of "chamber" for different reeds.

I currently play a G/D Lachenal (Wheatstone accidentals). Just out of curiosity the other day I sat down at the piano and mapped out exactly what notes I had and where. I knew it was pretty chromatic, but was surprised to find that I had almost three full chromatic octaves (just one note short)! There are 5-6 other notes on the high and low ends which I assume have the tuning they do for chords. At least I know the low ones are, I don't really use those very high outliers. And of course many notes are duplicates in different locations/directions. I guess what I'm saying is yes, some keys are easier to play on some concertina tunings than others. But those old makers and designers had a pretty good idea what they were doing! The more I play the more I appreciate the inherent logic in the Anglo system. Would I appreciate 2-4 extra buttons for additional low notes/notes in alternate directions? Sure. But I don't see much reason to do more than tinker with what works. -David

That's an interesting question of ergonomics, and might be more appropriate in that forum. This is something I've been struggling with myself, since I find it more comfortable to play with looser straps and my palm arched away from the "hand rest." The problem then is you don't have a good surface for pushing. I've thought of adding in some foam (as described elsewhere on this site) to "raise" the hand rails while keeping my fingers in my preferred position, but haven't put it to the test yet. What I do do, however, is use non-playing fingers on the right side as support pushers. This is especially true when I am playing a passage just on the left side; then my right hand fingers all rest above and between the third row and just push. If I could get a higher, padded hand rest that would probably make a big difference. But I don't look at putting more fingers down as a crutch. The more points of contact you have with the ends of your instrument, the better fine motor control you can exert on your bellows. Of course i only do it when those fingers aren't playing any notes. Just my opinion. Looking forward to others.

According to the liner notes of "Steam," John plays Dipper concertinas. So I think very much a custom job!

Des, Interesting what you bring up about 36-button instruments. I know someone who has a 36-button C. Jeffries box in C/G; I'll have to take a closer look at it now and see what the levers are like. I didn't realize that 36-buttons were so unusual for Jeffries make. -David

Hmmm. What I meant, of course, is that I'm not the final authority on anything concertina-related, and that I am not opposed to corrections being made to my statements if necessary. In a friendly manner, of course. It might be a way though to earn some extra money to feed my COAD.......hmmmmmmm.........

Well I'm sorry to disagree with you, Mick (please don't take that too seriously). I play some pieces along the rows and some pieces across the rows, and in my humble experience, Jeffries/Wheatstone differences aside you can play any piece on any 30-key anglo using the same exact fingering as long as you disregard the key in which you are playing. I can play Sheriff's Ride, with melody cross-rowed on the right and chords on the left, on a C/G, a Bb/F, and a G/D, and it's exactly the same except for the relative key. But maybe I'm not fully understanding your post. I'm certainly available for correction if this is the case. -David