Playing In The Dark On A G/d

[Jim Besser]

So I've been playing contra dance music on a C/G, but am gradually shifting to G/D as my weapon of choice. But I have a problem: in a large band setting, I can't hear myself play on the G/D. The problem is alleviated somewhat if the monitor level is good, but even then, the notes seem to get lost in the wall of sound.

 

At our big open band last week, I had a moment of panic when I realized I could be playing in the wrong key without knowing it.

 

Initially I thought the big issue was the difference in quality between my instruments -- the C/G is a traditional concertina, with a very brash sound, the G/D a Morse with accordion reeds. But I tried playing with my Herrington C/G, and I could hear that just fine.

 

So I'm wondering if I'll have an easier time of it with a traditional instrument -- or will the lower pitch of the G/D continue to cause audibility headaches?

 

Any suggestions for dealing with the issue? I even thought of a little personal Walkman-like monitor and an ear bud, but that seems like an excessively geeky solution. I really like playing G/D because it works so well with so many tunes, but it's hard when you can't hear!

[Terry A]

So I've been playing contra dance music on a C/G, but am gradually shifting to G/D as my weapon of choice. But I have a problem: in a large band setting, I can't hear myself play on the G/D. The problem is alleviated somewhat if the monitor level is good, but even then, the notes seem to get lost in the wall of sound.

 

At our big open band last week, I had a moment of panic when I realized I could be playing in the wrong key without knowing it.

 

Initially I thought the big issue was the difference in quality between my instruments -- the C/G is a traditional concertina, with a very brash sound, the G/D a Morse with accordion reeds. But I tried playing with my Herrington C/G, and I could hear that just fine.

 

So I'm wondering if I'll have an easier time of it with a traditional instrument -- or will the lower pitch of the G/D continue to cause audibility headaches?

 

Any suggestions for dealing with the issue? I even thought of a little personal Walkman-like monitor and an ear bud, but that seems like an excessively geeky solution. I really like playing G/D because it works so well with so many tunes, but it's hard when you can't hear!

[Jody Kruskal]

So I've been playing contra dance music on a C/G, but am gradually shifting to G/D as my weapon of choice. But I have a problem: in a large band setting, I can't hear myself play on the G/D. The problem is alleviated somewhat if the monitor level is good, but even then, the notes seem to get lost in the wall of sound.

 

Any suggestions for dealing with the issue?

 

Hi Jim,

 

I’ve had that problem too. Especially playing in some of the big gyms and dance halls, the sound can get very muddy. A good monitor system and a responsive sound person can do wonders... but only to a point. In the midi concertina thread I mentioned my dance rig:

 

“I already have a bunch of gear that I take to a contra dance gig. My G/D (plays 95% of the time) and C/G (for Dm, C, and high squeaky G tunes). I have my velcro mics and a guitar processor (AX30G Korg ToneWorks) that I plug into for all kinds of tonal control and effects.”

 

Most of those effects are EQ, compression, and occasional tremolo at various settings. This handy box lets me design and save my own settings and then recall them with foot pedals. I have 4 voices that I’ve made for concertina at dances. 1 - for most of the time, 2 - for solos, 3 - for a wet accordion sound, 4 - for quiet stuff like waltzes. There is a pressure pedal too, which lets me control a parameter dynamically, like tremolo for instance. The harder I step on the pedal, the more of the effect is there. This lets me go from no tremolo to a kind of B3 jazz organ sound with fine control. Very cool, if used sparingly. Even a little tremolo really cuts through the mush without increasing volume. My band members wonder what’s up over there with my box, ‘cause my settings are really pretty subtle and to them it all sounds like concertina. I use it just to add clarity or warmth at the appropriate times, so I’m not using the killer death distortion patches that the device comes with.

 

I hope you find my solution to this problem helpful.

 

Jody

Edited February 13, 2006 by Jody Kruskal

[Alan Day]

When I first listened to myself on a recording I realised to my horror that I was playing much louder than any other member of the band.On further discussions with other players and some on this site yonks ago it was truthfully said that if you can hear yourself you are playing louder that the rest of the musicians.This becomes more of a problem if you lose some of your hearing.I think it is something you get used to.You certainly hear yourself if you do something wrong.Adjustments can be made on the fall back speakers to bring you up a bit but not effecting the main speakers.

What an arrangement you have there Jody.

I use two mikes about 300 mm from the concertina to overcome the closed and open of the bellows.I have never got on with pickup mikes close to the concertina as some notes come out louder than others owing to postioning of the mike and also pick up of bellow noise. I like the sound of the adjustment pedal but how do you know from the initial sound check that your adjustments are working out front?.

An interesting subject

Al

[Robin Madge]

After years of playing in noisy sessions and with amplified bands, I realise that I get some slight feedback(foldback?) through the fingertips. By this I mean that I can feel the vibration of the notes from the instrument. I presume that the slight sensation is enough to tell me whether I am in tune or in harmony rather than playing completely the wrong note!

 

Robin Madge

[Mark Evans]

I used think I had problems hearing my concertina in band situations until like Alan I heard a recording. My Albion can always be heard and then some. That's all it took and now I hear it. For me, just a switch in the head. At large jam sessions, I felt the same way about my banjo (if that can be believed). I have been assured that should I wish, the tide could be turned with its volume .

 

As far as amplification, the bands I knock about with only use a single microphone. We move in and out of the "kill zone" as lead and backup requires. Works very well and is visually pleasing. Of course the best is acoustic, but it is a rare situation where one gets to do that.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Mark Evans

[Jim Besser]

Thanks, folks. Some interesting ideas. Guess there are two issues here: how to mic any concertina and get good audio feedback, and the difference in audibility between a C/G and G/D.

 

I rarely have trouble hearing the C/Gs, even in the big open band -- 30 plus musicians all paying their guts out. I can't hear the G/D at all. I wonder how much of that is my own deteriorating hearing.

[Terry A]

Just joined the Forum and interested in reading of your problems. I have just gone from a G/D to a C/G which hasn't been heard publicly yet.

The beauty of the G/D is, if I can't hear it, nobody else can either! I think the C/G version is scarier than the G/D version in a session - where the wrong note counts. I'll keep you posted.

 

Terry

[Jody Kruskal]

Welcome Terry,

 

Please do keep us informed of how you are getting on.

 

C/G instruments certainly can cut through. Personally, I've never had a problem being heard on my G/D Jefferies, some times just the opposite and I find it hard work to play quiet enough. As Alan pointed out, it's a bit rude to play louder than everyone else and it's better to blend. I really like situations where everyone is kind of moving in and out with their dynamics and taking turns leading, following, imitating each other and doing the kind of listening that you have to do if you are having a real conversation.

 

That's why I like my mics that velcro on to my concertina for those big halls. If I'm not stuck to a mic stand I can go and visit the piano player and sit right down on the bench, or get right next to the fiddle when there is something that we are doing together like a harmony or a backing chunk thing. Of course no amplification at all, and just sitting around the kitchen table is the best, but where would all the dancers fit?

 

What an arrangement you have there Jody.

 

I have never got on with pickup mikes close to the concertina as some notes come out louder than others owing to postioning of the mike and also pick up of bellow noise.

 

I made little extenders that put the mic about 2 inches out and angled back at the reed pan. It's not perfect, but most of the reeds sound at the same volume. Close enough for a noisy dance. The bellows noise is way below the radar at the echo ridden halls around here.

 

I like the sound of the adjustment pedal but how do you know from the initial sound check that your adjustments are working out front?.

An interesting subject

Al

 

Talk about playing in the dark! Who knows what it sounds like out there. The way it works here in the US is that every community dance has a crew of volunteers who run the sound and also dance themselves. Some groups have a tech person who knows what they are doing, but most are amateurs. Sometimes we play weekends or concerts where the sound people are professional but that is not the norm. So we have to trust them to muddle through as best they can. We take turns walking around the hall while the rest are playing and sometimes tweak the hall a little. I only know of one contra dance band that brings and runs their own PA reinforcement system. I have heard that things are different in this regard for English bands. Yes?

 

So, how do I know my adjustments are working?... because I hear them in the monitors and I see the dancers respond to what I play. Some of my settings are subtle, but if I want to, I can make them overt, and I do from time to time just to prove to myself that I am there.

 

Jody

[Larry Stout]

I guess I'm lucky-- when my band plays (either for dancing or for background music) we go acoustic. The usual gig is for about 30-40 English Country dancers. The caller uses a mic but we don't. When the crowd gets up to 70 or so the murmur of side conversations becomes a problem. There are usually seven or eight of us in the band (two fiddles, two woodwinds, keyboard, bass, cello and percussion) my EC (which I alternate with fiddle, occasional mandolin or viola d'amore) is clearly audible in this setting as is one of my bandmate's garklein recorder. We vary the instrumentation on the fly with parts of the group dropping out to let the others sound through. We've been playing together for about 15 years and have gotten fairly good at listening to eachother.

 

Larry

Edited February 15, 2006 by Larry Stout

[Alan Day]

What I like about Jody is that he throws into a sentence a big subject and continues as if he never mentioned it.I expect this to be moved as it could be a good talking point,the use of Guitar sound systems with the amplification of concertinas for band work.I have been thinking this over and I want one.I know many of you who are strict concertina sound lovers are going to throw your arms up in horror at this idea, but if it is possible to switch with a foot pedal from true sound to reverb or horrors echo and it enhances the band sound I see no reason why it cannot be used.

Is it possible you can let us have the details Jody.Are you using this system through two speakers mixing the two into one output and then through the Guitar system? Or another method?

Al

[Robin Madge]

On the subject of electronic effects pedals, with my Anglos I use a digital delay pedal, a chorus pedal and a graphic equaliser pedal.

 

The digital delay I set up to give a slight echo, the amount dependant on the characteristics of the room, so that I can usually hae the same amount whatever building I am in.

 

The chorus pedal is used for those rare occasions when I want a sound like a melodian, cjun numbers etc.

 

The graphic equaliser is used when you come across a room that responds too well to certain frequencies.

 

My wife has used an octave pedal on her English, which responds better to single note playing. It gets confused with chords but is still useful in controling the volume fed to the amp.

 

Robin Madge

[Jody Kruskal]

Is it possible you can let us have the details Jody.Are you using this system through two speakers mixing the two into one output and then through the Guitar system? Or another method?

Al

 

Al,

 

I guess that would work, but my setup is much simpler. Microvox concertina mics plug directly into my AX30G Korg ToneWorks guitar effects processor. The processor line out goes to the halls amplification system. I hear my processed signal through stage monitors that are powered and mixed by the halls system.

 

It did take some study to program the Korg processor’s user specified patches to make the concertina sound more to my liking. I got the processor because I was getting lost in the noisy swirl of dance hall sound and wanted to be able to cut through. The vibrato effect, chorus, EQ, compression, over all volume and the use of the pressure pedal to dynamicly control some of these effects were all helpful in giving me the control I need when I play with Grand Picnic or any big band. When I play quieter dances with Dressed Ship we are playing English Country and it’s a trio... I leave the Korg unit at home.

 

My unit is no longer made. The latest version is AX3000G not 30G, but appears to work the same with a few additional bells and whistles. I would probably get something else if I were to go looking today. There are lots of guitar processors to choose from and you can walk into any music shop and try them out. To see more info on some of what’s out there, go to:

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitar/navi...N=100001+306293