George Fox And Monk's March

[synchopepper]

I have been performing “George Fox” by the late Sydney Carter with banjo accompaniment. Recently I learned that Sydney used the melody of an old Morris tune called “Monk’s March” for this song. I have a recording of this tune by Richard Carlin and thought I would learn it on the concertina and perform them both together.

 

Does anyone have any information about either “George Fox” or “Monk’s March” that would be useful in the way of an intro to explain them to an audience?

[Steven]

Sorry, I can't help you with these tunes because I know nothing about them. I was just wondering if the song is about George Fox, one of the founders of Quakerism? Or is it some other George Fox?

 

Steven

[Lester Bailey]

I have been performing “George Fox” by the late Sydney Carter with banjo accompaniment.  Recently I learned that Sydney used the melody of an old Morris tune called “Monk’s March” for this song.  I have a recording of this tune by Richard Carlin and thought I would learn it on the concertina and perform them both together.

Does anyone have any information about either “George Fox” or “Monk’s March” that would be useful in the way of an intro to explain them to an audience?

According to this site the George Fox in question is indeed

one of the founders of Quakerism

As for Monk's March, it is a heel and toe dance from Sherborne in Gloucestershire if played with a 2/2 time signature (this seems to suit the song) but also appears as General Monk's March with a 4/4 time signature as a heel and toe dance from Bledington in Gloucestershire. The two villages are 17 miles apart.

Details of the General Monk in question can be found here.

 

Edited for formatting incompetence and speelingg

Edited June 18, 2004 by Lester Bailey

[John Wild]

There is a Welsh tune called Ymdaith Bellisle (The Belleisle March0 which is so similar to Monck's March you could play one after the other and listeners would hardly see the join. It appears in a book called Llewelyn Alaw - LLyfr alawon Poced

= Llewelyn Alaw - Pocket Tune book, Edited by Robin Huw Bowen.

 

The notes in the book gie the information that Llewelyn Alaw was a harpist from Aberdar, who lived from 1828 to 1879.

 

- John Wild

[Robin Madge]

I was told that General Monk turned up too late for a battle, and that is why Monk's march is a slow tune.

 

Robin Madge

[Stephen Mills]

I was told that General Monk turned up too late for a battle, and that is why Monk's march is a slow tune.

 

Robin Madge

Not late enough to battle to suit my Scottish ancestors, generally on the losing end.

 

Remembering his history, perhaps a fitting memorial to General Monk would be to suddenly change tunes whenever it suits your own interests. (Is 350 years too long to hold on to an ancestral grudge?)

Edited June 22, 2004 by Stephen Mills

[Brian Humphrey]

The "George Fox" song is well known among Friends (Quakers). It appears on page 272 of Worship in Song: A Friends Hymnal, c. 1996, Friends General Conference, Philadelphia.

 

Although this source credits both words and music to Sydney Carter, with a 1964 copyright date, the tune was probably borrowed from the traditional sources mentioned above. Another variant is found in the Northumbrian Piper's Tune Book, with the name "Proudlock's Hornpipe".

 

It is interesting that Sydney Carter's song "Lord of the Dance"(c.1963) uses essentially the same melody[later note: oops - I didn't really mean this - see other's comments, and my retraction, below - bh].

 

Worship In Song gives additional notes about the "George Fox" song on page 382:

 

“George Fox (1624-1691) was the leader and shaper of the early Quaker movement, and almost all our organization, procedures, and testimonies were in place by the time he died. Indeed Quaker historians now see the century after his death as a period of “Quietism,” largely because of his absence. Sydney Carter’s verses accurately reflect the dramatic character of Fox’s preaching and personal style. He did wear leather breeches, and did wear his hair long, Cavalier-style, in contrast to the Puritan ‘roundheads’ of Cromwell’s army, who cut their hair short as a sign of piety.”

 

The verses given on the web site cited by Lester are Carter's original lyrics, but Quakers sing the chorus differently. Here is the chorus given in Worship in Song:

 

Walk in the Light, wherever you may be,

Walk in the light, wherever you may be!

“In my old leather breeches and my shaggy, shaggy locks,

I am walking in the glory of the light,” said Fox.

 

"In an earlier version of this song Sydney Carter had written 'You are pulling down the pillars of the world, George Fox!' but Friends substituted the more positive 'I am walking in the glory of the Light, said Fox.' When Carter was asked how he felt about this he is said to have replied, 'Don't worry about that. It's part of the creative process, too. People are always changing my words'"(Worship in Song, p. 382).

 

(edited for accuracy)

Edited June 24, 2004 by Brian Humphrey

[JimLucas]

It is interesting that Sydney Carter's song "Lord of the Dance"(c.1963) uses essentially the same melody.  Another variant is found in the Northumbrian Piper's Tune Book, with the name "Proudlock's Hornpipe".

Interesting how people's perceptions differ. I haven't heard the George Fox song, but I know a couple of versions of the Monk's March (MM) tune, the Lord of the Dance (LotD) tune (taken from the Shaker hymn Simple Gifts), and Proudlock's Hornpipe (PH). PH and MM do seem to be close variants of the same tune, but I think LotD resembles those two about as much as Soldier's Joy resembles Harvest Home, i.e., only vaguely. All great tunes, mind you.

[synchopepper]

Thanks to everyone for all the information and leads. I have made a draft of an intro for performing George Fox as follows:

 

Sydney Carter, who died this past March, was a prominent figure in the English folk music scene starting in the 70’s. He was best known as the author of “Lord of the Dance” which was based on an old Morris tune.

 

Next is another song by Sydney called “George Fox” which chronicles the life of the founder of the Quaker religion. It is well known in the Society of Friends and appears on page 272 of Worship in Song: A Friends Hymnal.

 

 

The Quaker hymnal gives these additional notes about the song:

 

“George Fox (1624-1691) was the leader and shaper of the early Quaker movement, and almost all our organization, procedures, and testimonies were in place by the time he died. Sydney Carter’s verses accurately reflect the dramatic character of Fox’s preaching and personal style. He did wear leather breeches, and did wear his hair long, Cavalier-style, in contrast to the Puritan ‘roundheads’ of Cromwell’s army, who cut their hair short as a sign of piety.”

 

While the hymnal credits both words and music to Carter, he actually appropriated another old Morris tune called “Monk’s March” for this song. I originally pictured “Monks March” as a processional for ponderous robed men in a medieval. Based on correspondence with Morris musicians in England I found that Monk’s March actually refers to a General George Monk, a contemporary of Fox.

 

 

Here is a short Bio of General Monk:

 

“One of Oliver Cromwell's most loyal supporters, and leader of his subjugation of the Scots leading to poverty and starvation in Scotland. Monk took part in Cromwell's defeat of the Scots at Dunbar in 1650. He laid siege to Tantallon and Blackness Castles in 1651, destroying the former and causing much damage to the latter. He also sacked Dundee in the same year. Monk drove the remaining royalists into the Highlands and built a string of garrison to ensure control of Scotland.”

 

Isn’t it odd that Carter chose a tune about General Monk for a song honoring the founder of the pacifist Quakers?

 

END

 

If anyone sees any errors in this, factual or otherwise please let me know.

[Peter Brook]

On the subject of Sydney Carter, "Crow on the Cradle" is one of the most moving antiwar songs I have ever heard. It's one of those hairs on the back of the neck songs for me. When I first heard it I could not believe it was written by the same guy that came up with "(L/)Bord of the Dance". Certainly was a talented and versatile guy.

[JimLucas]

Sydney Carter ... was best known as the author of  “Lord of the Dance” which was based on an old Morris tune.

I'll repeat what I just said in passing before:

.... It is my understanding that the tune to "Lord of the Dance" was taken directly from the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts", and was never a traditional Morris tune.

 

A dance composed of steps and figures from several different Morris traditions was later choreographed to the song (not just the tune), specifically for The Christmas Revels, a Christmas pageant performed in various American cities. But that dance is an enactment of the words of the song, not in itself a Morris dance, and I don't know if has ever been performed in the UK.

 

Edited to add: The choreography, by the way, is copyright, but independently of the song.

Edited June 22, 2004 by JimLucas

[Peter Brook]

To back up Jim's point I've only ever encounted "Lord of the Dance" in a church context (Anglican). I've never seen any Morris danced to that tune.

 

In England "Lord of the Dance" is seen by many church goers as a hippy 70's disaster of a worship song in a similar vein to "Give me oil in my lamp, keep it burning, give me oil in my lamp I pray...", "When I needed a neighbour were you there, were you there..." etc. etc. [apologies if they happen to be your personal favourites].

 

The fact that Sydney Carter wrote "Crow on the cradle" is all the more remarkable given some of his other "work".

[JimLucas]

Isn’t it odd that Carter chose a tune about General Monk for a song honoring the founder of the pacifist Quakers?

What's odd about that? A good tune is a good tune.

Even if he knew who General Monk was -- which he may not have, -- he may not have cared.

 

The tune for what is now America's national anthem, "The Star Spangled Banner", was taken from a drinking song, "To Anacreon in Heaven". Another American patriotic song, "My Country 'Tis of Thee", uses the same tune as England's "God Save the King/Queen". Many tunes have numerous unrelated sets of words. The tune to the drinking song "Rosin the Beau" is said to have been used for more than 100 different campaign songs -- for both sides -- in the American presidential campaign that was won by Andrew Jackson.

[JimLucas]

The fact that Sydney Carter wrote "Crow on the cradle" is all the more remarkable given some of his other "work".

How so? Surely you don't mean that creativity shouldn't be versatile?

Did he also write pro-war songs?

[Lester Bailey]

.... It is my understanding that the tune to "Lord of the Dance" was taken directly from the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts", and was never a traditional Morris tune.

Agree with Jim that Lord of the Dance is not a trad tune, but Aldbury Morris use it regularily for a dance called Skirmish in the following set:

• British Grenadiers
  
• Ode to Joy
  
• Lord of the Dance
  
• British Grenadiers
  

[Steven]

The tune to the drinking song "Rosin the Beau" is said to have been used for more than 100 different campaign songs -- for both sides -- in the American presidential campaign that was won by Andrew Jackson.

Hmm, seems appropriate that Jackson won an election based at least in part on words set to a drinking song. That was a guy who liked to throw a party!

 

Steven

[synchopepper]

Here is another round with my intro - changes are in <>'s:

 

Sydney Carter, who died this past March, was a prominent figure in the English folk music scene starting in the 70’s. He was best known as the author of the popular song “Lord of the Dance” <which may have been based on the Shaker tune “Simple Gifts”.>

 

Next is another song by Sydney called “George Fox” which chronicles the life of the founder of the Quaker religion. It is well known in the Society of Friends and appears on page 272 of Worship in Song: A Friends Hymnal.

 

 

The Quaker hymnal gives these additional notes about the song:

 

“George Fox (1624-1691) was the leader and shaper of the early Quaker movement, and almost all our organization, procedures, and testimonies were in place by the time he died. Sydney Carter’s verses accurately reflect the dramatic character of Fox’s preaching and personal style. He did wear leather breeches, and did wear his hair long, Cavalier-style, in contrast to the Puritan ‘roundheads’ of Cromwell’s army, who cut their hair short as a sign of piety.”

 

While the hymnal credits both words and music to Carter, he actually appropriated another old Morris tune called “Monk’s March” for this song. I originally pictured “Monks March” as a processional for ponderous robed men in a medieval. Based on correspondence with Morris musicians in England I found that Monk’s March actually refers to a General George Monk, a contemporary of Fox.

 

 

Here is a short Bio of General Monk:

 

“One of Oliver Cromwell's most loyal supporters, and leader of his subjugation of the Scots leading to poverty and starvation in Scotland. Monk took part in Cromwell's defeat of the Scots at Dunbar in 1650. He laid siege to Tantallon and Blackness Castles in 1651, destroying the former and causing much damage to the latter. He also sacked Dundee in the same year. Monk drove the remaining royalists into the Highlands and built a string of garrison to ensure control of Scotland.”

 

Isn’t it <ironic> that Carter chose a tune dedicated to General Monk for a song honoring the founder of the pacifist Quakers?

[JimLucas]

Along with experimenting with some changes to my MP3-links web page, I've added a few more MP3's. One is Monk's March immediately followed by Proudlock's Hornpipe, to show that they're virtually identical.