Concertina, Accordion Difference

[Richard Morse]

Bass accordion - cello-accordion - are these truly accordions?

Yes they are. They are different from most accordions in that they only have a single keyboard. The other side has a single air-dump lever.

Despite that they have no chords and only ONE keyboard, I believe that they are accordions.

As to free-bass accordions - the only kind I know personally is the Russian bayan, with a "convertible" left end, switchable between chord-button and note-button systems.

There are many free-bass only (on the bass side) accordions. Giulietti was a big importer to the USA of free-bass accordions (both piano and chromatic forms) which he called "bassetti" bass. Only his largest, most expensive boxes had both free-bass and stradella which he called "converter" accordions.

I suppose a large, rectangular, strapped-on free-reed instrument with identical fingering systems left and right would be best termed a "duet accordion"

Which well describes the chemnitzer and bandoneon (which are concertinas!).

 

-- Rich ---

[squeezbxhvn]

Thank you very much gentlemen for all the info.... much more satisfying revealing answers than I had expected.

Now... does anyone out there know how to play Lawrence Welk`s theme song on concertina??!!

[Anglo-Irishman]

I suppose a large, rectangular, strapped-on free-reed instrument with identical fingering systems left and right would be best termed a "duet accordion"

Which well describes the chemnitzer and bandoneon (which are concertinas!).

 

-- Rich ---

 

Rich,

I don't quite get that!

Isn't the defining chracteristic of the duet concertinas that each hand has its own complete keyboard and can play independently, whereas the English and Anglo concertinas have the scales spread over both ends? (English: alternate notes left and right; Anglo: low notes left, high notes right) And the Bandoneon at least is very like the Anglo in this respect. I've never played a Cemnitzer or Carlsfelder, but from looking at their button layouts, it looks like their scales overlap the ends in a similar way.

And isn't a "bisonoric duet" a contradiction in terms? As soon as the bellows direction narrows down the choice of available notes, the independence of the hands - the main reason for having duets - is severely restricted.

 

Cheers,

John

[hjcjones]

The problem with accordions, in English folk music anyway, is that all too often the people who play them seem content to play in quite a limited way. When someone brings an accordion to a session, my haert sinks because the likelihood is that they will play in a very turgid fashion with little rhythmic emphasis. And although they have 120 bass buttons, they'll ignore most of them in favour of a simple and unimaginative 3-chord trick.

 

Fortunately there are exceptions to this, but not many, at least that's been my experience.

[chiton1]

The problem with accordions, in English folk music anyway, is that all too often the people who play them seem content to play in quite a limited way. When someone brings an accordion to a session, my haert sinks because the likelihood is that they will play in a very turgid fashion with little rhythmic emphasis. And although they have 120 bass buttons, they'll ignore most of them in favour of a simple and unimaginative 3-chord trick.

 

Fortunately there are exceptions to this, but not many, at least that's been my experience.

 

 

I remember going to a session one day and the only place vacant was next to a piano accordeon player. It was no use as my concertina and flute were no match for his hellish colossus. It was like sitting next to a church organ. My Aeola I play these days would have been a better match, but as he wasn't playing very good (nor very bad) and I quite dislike the sound of the piano accordeon (sorry to all those who play it) there wouldn't have been a point in staying. So I went to the bar to find consolation in drink and there I met a lovely lady who is still a good friend of mine. Proving that the piano accordian can have its use and benefit for me too!

[Richard Morse]

I suppose a large, rectangular, strapped-on free-reed instrument with identical fingering systems left and right would be best termed a "duet accordion"

Which well describes the chemnitzer and bandoneon (which are concertinas!).

Isn't the defining chracteristic of the duet concertinas that each hand has its own complete keyboard and can play independently, whereas the English and Anglo concertinas have the scales spread over both ends?

My comment was in response to your description, not to your conclusion. Sorry that I wasn't clear about that.

 

Yes, anlgos (and chemnitzers and bandoneons) have their ranges spread over both sides, but so do duets. And you can play complete tunes on either side of an anglo, chemnitzer, bandoneon or duet.

And isn't a "bisonoric duet" a contradiction in terms? As soon as the bellows direction narrows down the choice of available notes, the independence of the hands - the main reason for having duets - is severely restricted.

The restriction of notes on a bisonoric instrument is mostly due to a limited number of buttons. The more buttons the more duplicated tones on the other bellows direction. Some of the larger (more buttoned) concertinas have most notes available in both bellows direction. In fact bandoneon players play very complex pieces almost exclusively on the pull.

 

I also note that there are at least two fingering systems that are bisonoric, have just about every not duplicated on push and pull, with low end on the left and high on the right, *and* is isomorphic. Sort of a like a bisonoric Hayden duet.

 

-- Rich --

[drbones]

My favorite T-shirt:

-- Rich --

 

I was sorely disappointed when I pressed the "HERE" button.

 

Dang!! This was supposed to be a "Quote".

Edited September 4, 2008 by drbones

[Richard Morse]

I was sorely disappointed when I pressed the "HERE" button.

Must be a dead link! You should hear the sound it makes when *I* wear the shirt.

 

-- Rich --

[m3838]

and I quite dislike the sound of the piano accordeon

Hm.

Considering there is no such thing, as "sound of the piano accordion", that is specifically different from the sound of any other free reed instruments, what part of it you dislike?

The sound of one reed of piano accordion, esp. in reed chamber, is quite sweet and elegant, and not loud at all.

But it's an interesting topic, given vast quantity of various types, cabinets, button/keys layouts and left/right combination.

What would you consider Schweizer Orgeli to be? It' has bysonoric three row fully chromatic right keyboard, that has usual accordionish direction of button travel, but three or two rows of the uni-sonoric buttons on the left, arranged in concertina fashion, playing either chords, or single notes. It's small, portable, and has characteristic sound due to it's traditional tuning.

Bass accordion can't be considered here, as it is a marginal conversion, like single action double bass EC, foot bass, or Irish chromatic with bass side converted to play single basses.

[Dirge]

and I quite dislike the sound of the piano accordeon

Hm.

Considering there is no such thing, as "sound of the piano accordion", that is specifically different from the sound of any other free reed instruments, what part of it you dislike?

The sound of one reed of piano accordion, esp. in reed chamber, is quite sweet and elegant, and not loud at all.

But it's an interesting topic, given vast quantity of various types, cabinets, button/keys layouts and left/right combination.

What would you consider Schweizer Orgeli to be? It' has bysonoric three row fully chromatic right keyboard, that has usual accordionish direction of button travel, but three or two rows of the uni-sonoric buttons on the left, arranged in concertina fashion, playing either chords, or single notes. It's small, portable, and has characteristic sound due to it's traditional tuning.

Bass accordion can't be considered here, as it is a marginal conversion, like single action double bass EC, foot bass, or Irish chromatic with bass side converted to play single basses.

 

 

Good holiday?

[m3838]

Good holiday?

 

Glad you asked.

Russian River Canoe trip, tipping over a few times. losing and finding my floating cell phone, quitting my highly paying semi-corporate job and enrolling in massage therapy school - huge career change with half the former salary, if lucky.

Very energizing experience, I feel like walking on air, been very agitated at the same time. Very scary, yet satisfying. A little strange at school, where during my first 4 days I still can't understand the structure and feel like I haven't been taught anything. But a 1000 mile journey begins and ends, as we all know, so the main part, as Napoleon used to say, puffing smoke with his pipe, is to get engaged, then it'll be seen. So perhaps I can go to concertina festivals doing free massage "walk throughs". I'm sure you all need it badly.

The only problem is to keep my mouth shut when they load me with "connecting the body, mind and soul" BS.

I'm afraid I'm not cynical enough for this "philosophy". Haven't touched concertina in 2-3 weeks in a row. No time.

There you go.

[Dirge]

So.....you had a good holiday then? (apart from the lack of practice which would clearly be a black mark)

[wntrmute]

What would you consider Schweizer Orgeli to be? It' has bysonoric three row fully chromatic right keyboard, that has usual accordionish direction of button travel, but three or two rows of the uni-sonoric buttons on the left, arranged in concertina fashion, playing either chords, or single notes. It's small, portable, and has characteristic sound due to it's traditional tuning.

Asymetric keyboards, plays chords -- accordion by the definition I favor.

'...usual accondionish direction of button travel...' -- accordion by the definition Mr. Morse favors.

 

Accordion no matter how you slice and dice it.

 

My sister works as a massage therapist. Car insurance companies will pay for people to get massage after accidents, also it is sometimes prescribed by doctors for tension and thus covered by medical insurance (depending on the policy). Regardless, it is doubtful that there's huge money there. Not that money is everything. You can't buy happiness, they say (though it seems to me that you can sure enough purchase a pretty fair approximation of it -- but that's just me being bitter about a lack in positive cash accumulation in my own accounts I'm sure). Oh, and the foofy new age stuff is semi-obligatory, like getting a fortune cookie with the bill in a Chinese restaurant. People will be disappointed if you didn't have crystals and incense and all that goofy crap. Or meaningful transcendental ambiance if you're into that kind of thing -- I don't want to harsh anyone's mellow here.

[Anglo-Irishman]

and I quite dislike the sound of the piano accordeon

Hm.

Considering there is no such thing, as "sound of the piano accordion", that is specifically different from the sound of any other free reed instruments, what part of it you dislike?

The sound of one reed of piano accordion, esp. in reed chamber, is quite sweet and elegant, and not loud at all.

 

Misha,

You set me thinking, and that's always dangerous ...

 

So just let me jot down some thoughts:

 

1. I'm one of those who squirms when someone unpacks a piano-accordion. But I'll listen to a Russian street musician playing his bayan for hours on end (and even put money in his hat!)

 

2. You should know that musical instruments don't make sounds. Well, sounds, perhaps, but not music. It's the system consisting of instrument and musician that makes music.

 

3. A very musical friend of mine, a violinist, decided to take up the accordion. Seriously. With a professional accordion teacher. And with a "proper" accordion - that is, a chromatic button accordion. because of the musical capabilities it offers. Obtaining this turned out to be the first problem. As his Russian teacher (and bayan virtuoso) pointed out, you usually have to buy a button accordion new. Piano-accordions are available en masse second-hand. Why? Because people who have learnt piano or keyboard, and want to take up something more portable, think that the piano-accordion must be a cinch to learn. They don't see the accordion as an instrument in its own right, that one has to learn from scratch. Some of them manage to learn the bass-chord-chord left-hand accompaniment and the three-chord trick; some don't, and sell their PAs second-hand. The ones who buy button accordions are the ones who are going to stick at it and keep their instruments.

So the statistical tendency is for chromatic button accordions to be played by serious musicians (including serious amateurs), and for piano-accordions to be played by wannabe free-reeders who've had piano lessons.

 

Don't get me wrong - there are some very good, classical piano-accordionists around, especially here in the German south-west, where the Accordion Clubs give youngsters an opportunity to try their hand at the PA as their first instrument, and promote the truly musical ones (my wife had a couple of these in her primary-school class a few years ago - they added a touch of class to school concerts!) But, unfortunately, the ex-piano pupils who have mastered the three-chord trick outweigh the true piano-accordionists.

And that's what makes the "piano-accordion sound".

A person who totes a chromatic button accordion has invariably learnt the accordion as such.

 

Just my thoughts on the topic.

Cheers,

John

Edited September 5, 2008 by Anglo-Irishman

[chiton1]

and I quite dislike the sound of the piano accordeon

Hm.

Considering there is no such thing, as "sound of the piano accordion", that is specifically different from the sound of any other free reed instruments, what part of it you dislike?

The sound of one reed of piano accordion, esp. in reed chamber, is quite sweet and elegant, and not loud at all.

But it's an interesting topic, given vast quantity of various types, cabinets, button/keys layouts and left/right combination.

What would you consider Schweizer Orgeli to be? It' has bysonoric three row fully chromatic right keyboard, that has usual accordionish direction of button travel, but three or two rows of the uni-sonoric buttons on the left, arranged in concertina fashion, playing either chords, or single notes. It's small, portable, and has characteristic sound due to it's traditional tuning.

Bass accordion can't be considered here, as it is a marginal conversion, like single action double bass EC, foot bass, or Irish chromatic with bass side converted to play single basses.

 

I do not know much about PA but the things I refer too are big, have piano like keys on one side and a million bass or whatever buttons on the other. I just do not like the sound coming out of it. Why? I don't know. Why some people do not like fish or cheese and why I do love it? If I would find reasons why I do not like the PA you will tell me perhaps that those reasons are exactly the ones that make you love the instrument. I especially dislike the PA in ITM (let them play Musettes on a Parisian street corner!).

Edited September 9, 2008 by chiton1

[m3838]

So.....you had a good holiday then? (apart from the lack of practice which would clearly be a black mark)

Will a day of canoeing on Russian River, with picnics along the way, with refreshing dips be considered a good holiday?

[m3838]

. Oh, and the foofy new age stuff is semi-obligatory, like getting a fortune cookie with the bill in a Chinese restaurant. People will be disappointed if you didn't have crystals and incense and all that goofy crap. Or meaningful transcendental ambiance if you're into that kind of thing -- I don't want to harsh anyone's mellow here.

:D :D

Yes. This month I will have to survive.

I'm a believer in self-healing idea, but I am also a believer of talent. Some can, most can't.

Today I had to sit through an idiotic lesson about setting goals in life, with very American "You can do it" message.

I say, what americans lack is healthy dose of cynicism and intolerance to banality. Never mind I pay $1700 a month for such crap. I'm not even sure if I agree to take payment to sit through such party lines.

But I lived through it. Wha's worth, is some students behave as though they just have fallen from the trees. They bring burgers to the class, eat on massage tables, pop-open cans of soft drinks in the middle of lecture. Tomorrow I will come to Director of Education and complain.

The foofy stuff, that's it. Connecting the mind and the soul. Reiki treatment by conducting a Holy Spirit to come down.

No, I will use the common sense simplicity: Astral signs everywhere, transcedental music, awkward poses held for hours, and lectures about how it happened that Mohammad came back in the image of Jesus.

[wntrmute]

So.....you had a good holiday then? (apart from the lack of practice which would clearly be a black mark)

Will a day of canoeing on Russian River, with picnics along the way, with refreshing dips be considered a good holiday?

Queen Kathy thought it was.