Hadyen Duet: Playing Octave Leap

[ragtimer]

A question for you Hayden Duet players:

You're playing the melody on the Rh side, an upper row, with your Middle finger on the current note, and the melody calls for a smooth legato jump to the same note an octave lower.

 

Would you hit it with your Index, or your Ring finger?

 

The answer may depend on how your keyboard's buttons are laid out. I'll post more about what I discovered, complete with photos and diagrams, later. Preview: The answer to the question is different for my two Hayden boxes!

--Mike K.

[ragtimer]

A question for you Hayden Duet players:

You're playing the melody on the Rh side, an upper row, with your Middle finger on the current note, and the melody calls for a smooth legato jump to the same note an octave lower.

 

Would you hit it with your Index, or your Ring finger?

--Mike K.

My descending-octave fingering is different, depending whether I'm playing my Stagi 46 or Bastari 67. Why? Because the octave columns of buttons are sloped differently relative to the hand rest.

 

The first photo shows the Stagi's RH buttons; the second the Bastari's.

In both pics the handrest is horizontal, parallel with the orange line.

The yellow line is the "tilt" of the button rows, discussed at length last month, and T is the tilt angle.

 

But our topic is the light blue lines, representing the octave columns.

Note that its angle "V" with the norizontal base line is less than 90 degrees on the Stagi, so the octave column leans to the right. So is the upper button is played wiht the Middle finger, the bottom octave button would require the Index finger.

 

On the Bastari, the angle V is greater than 90 and the column leans to the left.

(FWIW, the column is perpendicular to the button rows.)

So when playing the upper button with the Middle, the lower must follow with the Ring.

 

So -- in a few tunes I have to finger differently depending on which box I'm playing!

And since the tilting or "shear" affects all the buttons, this explains why I have to re-learn some tunes between boxes, even when fingered the same.

 

QUESTION: Those of you with high quality Haydens (Rich, David, ...) --

which of the two photos is closer to your layout? Supposedly the Bastari was laid out to Brian's specs, while Stagi went their own way. Do your layouts look more like the Bastari (minus all those extra "flat" keys)?

 

Thanks, Mike K.

[Dirge]

I'd move the rest on one, Mike, I really would. Seems silly to learn two different fingerings. Decide which is most comfortable and make the other one conform!

[Richard Morse]

QUESTION: Those of you with high quality Haydens (Rich, David, ...) -- which of the two photos is closer to your layout?

My Wheatstone Hayden row slant is almost exactly between your two. Its slant is such that the octaves are just slightly inclined toward the left (less so that your square Hayden).

Supposedly the Bastari was laid out to Brian's specs, while Stagi went their own way. Do your layouts look more like the Bastari (minus all those extra "flat" keys)?

Closer anyway. I think that only the 46-key Bastari's were built to Brian's specs. The square ones veered from spec because of the action requirements and way the reeds were laid out. The Stagi Haydens are incredibly off spec. Even to the point where both sides have different slants!

 

-- Rich --

 

BTW, I finger the legato octave below with my ring finger.

[inventor]

The Bastari Hayden Square concertina has the standard spacing and slope, (discussed earlier) and this is virtually the same as is used by Wheatstones (Dickenson), Colin Dipper's Workshops, Concertina Connection, Tedrow, and Marcus; and in the past by Nicoli of Moscow, and conversions of Wheatstone instruments by Neville Crabb & Dana Williams. The only instruments that differ from this are the very first Hayden system instrument made by H Crabb & Sons before the inventor had ever tried out the system on any useable instrument, and hadn't worked out the optimum spacing, slope etc. & and regretably the inexpensive Hayden System Stagi instruments, which you illustrate.

 

It is possible that Wicki might have had one or more Square Concertinas made using the same idea, with different spacings and no slope; but I have never seen any and I don't know anyone who has.

 

With the correct slope on the octaves: for the right hand play the note on the lower octave with the finger to the right of the pair and going to the upper octave with the finger to the left of the pair (e.g. Little to Ring, Ring to Middle, and Middle to Index fingers); this is reversed on the left hand. Note that this means that the shorter little finger is always on a lower row of buttons. Regretably the fingering will have to be reversed on the right-hand side of a Stagi which could be awkward if the Little finger is involved. I have never had any contact or correspondance with Stagi.

 

Sometimes when playing a pair of notes together an octave apart to the extreme right of the Left hand button-board (c# with a c'# for instance) I may use the Middle finger to play the upper note, but I have never had occasion to do this when playing such notes consecutively.

 

Inventor.

[ragtimer]

QUESTION: Those of you with high quality Haydens (Rich, David, ...) -- which of the two photos is closer to your layout?

My Wheatstone Hayden row slant is almost exactly between your two. Its slant is such that the octaves are just slightly inclined toward the left (less so that your square Hayden).

Thanks, Rich. Yes, I would like a lot less slope on my Bastari, since the excessivve slope tends to make my Index finger hit one row too high, and the Pinky hit low. Causes even simple melodic passages to be full of land mines.

Supposedly the Bastari was laid out to Brian's specs, while Stagi went their own way. Do your layouts look more like the Bastari (minus all those extra "flat" keys)?

Closer anyway. I think that only the 46-key Bastari's were built to Brian's specs. The square ones veered from spec because of the action requirements and way the reeds were laid out. The Stagi Haydens are incredibly off spec. Even to the point where both sides have different slants!

-- Rich --

Too bad the Stagi is so much easier to play -- except for the awkward octave fingering.

The larger buttons are easier to hit and less likely to "smear" with adjacent notes.

And the wider row spacing makes 4ths and 5ths easier to slip one finger behind the other, without interference.

 

Now if someone would just make me a 60+ - key with a Stagi button layout .. but by that time I'll be stuck with harp and angelic choir.

BTW, I finger the legato octave below with my ring finger.

OK, that agrees with how I finger on the nearly-official Bastari 67. And with how Brian himself fingers his own box. I do like this, and Brian says it keeps the Pinky off the high notes.

--Mike K.

Edited March 22, 2008 by ragtimer

[JimLucas]

Now if someone would just make me a 60+ - key with a Stagi button layout .. but by that time I'll be stuck with harp and angelic choir.

The rest of us will miss you.

[ragtimer]

Now if someone would just make me a 60+ - key with a Stagi button layout .. but by that time I'll be stuck with harp and angelic choir.

The rest of us will miss you.

Thanks.

But by then, you may be up there with me

 

Meanwhile, here on Earth I'll settle for a 60+ key "standard" layout. I'm back to practicing my Bastari 67 as of noon today, having discharged an Easter "gig" on my Stagi 46, which is loud enough to paly in a group (and at the moment hits more right notes)

--Mike K.

Edited March 23, 2008 by ragtimer

[JimLucas]

Now if someone would just make me a 60+ - key with a Stagi button layout .. but by that time I'll be stuck with harp and angelic choir.

The rest of us will miss you.

Thanks.

But by then, you may be up there with me

Hmm.

Did you

deliberately

miss my point?

[ragtimer]

Now if someone would just make me a 60+ - key with a Stagi button layout .. but by that time I'll be stuck with harp and angelic choir.

The rest of us will miss you.

Thanks.

But by then, you may be up there with me

Hmm.

Did you

deliberately

miss my point?

Well, it occurred to me that the "rest of you" may be going to the other place, where they hand out PAs.

Though, in this Forum, PAs might not be so bad after all. Bagpipes? Or ophicleides? Or jsut bang out rhythms on the coal shovels?

 

Both locations have golf courses.

--Mike K.

[meltzer]

I reckon we'll still have 'tinas. It's just that the demonic hordes will have bodhrans & shaky eggs.

[ragtimer]

I reckon we'll still have 'tinas. It's just that the demonic hordes will have bodhrans & shaky eggs.

In both locales, we will play harmonies and countermelodies on our tinas.

But in the coolor spot, we will actually agree on the chords. --Mike K.

[meltzer]

I reckon we'll still have 'tinas. It's just that the demonic hordes will have bodhrans & shaky eggs.

In both locales, we will play harmonies and countermelodies on our tinas.

But in the coolor spot, we will actually agree on the chords. --Mike K.

Luckily, we'll have all eternity to do it in. That should be long enough. Probably.

[meltzer]

I reckon we'll still have 'tinas. It's just that the demonic hordes will have bodhrans & shaky eggs.

In both locales, we will play harmonies and countermelodies on our tinas.

But in the coolor spot, we will actually agree on the chords. --Mike K.

Luckily, we'll have all eternity to do it in. That should be long enough. Probably.

You also have to factor in the time it'll take for some of us English-style anglo players to work out what chord it is that we're actually playing.

[Hooves]

I reckon we'll still have 'tinas. It's just that the demonic hordes will have bodhrans & shaky eggs.

In both locales, we will play harmonies and countermelodies on our tinas.

But in the coolor spot, we will actually agree on the chords. --Mike K.

Luckily, we'll have all eternity to do it in. That should be long enough. Probably.

You also have to factor in the time it'll take for some of us English-style anglo players to work out what chord it is that we're actually playing.

 

 

having the best and worst of both worlds, I imagine eternal purgatory for us Duet players. We'll visit you upon occasion for rhythmic insights, and smile knowingly at your chordal distemperment.

[meltzer]

I reckon we'll still have 'tinas. It's just that the demonic hordes will have bodhrans & shaky eggs.

In both locales, we will play harmonies and countermelodies on our tinas.

But in the coolor spot, we will actually agree on the chords. --Mike K.

Luckily, we'll have all eternity to do it in. That should be long enough. Probably.

You also have to factor in the time it'll take for some of us English-style anglo players to work out what chord it is that we're actually playing.

 

 

having the best and worst of both worlds, I imagine eternal purgatory for us Duet players. We'll visit you upon occasion for rhythmic insights, and smile knowingly at your chordal distemperment.

All my chords are called "actually, that sounds alright." Does that help?