C/g Anglo- Stress On Joints

[Rick C.]

Hello the camp.

 

Well, I'm gettin' old and it sucks. I've been playing C#/D box for about 12 years now, and have been able to make it to a decent level of playing. However, it appears that arthritis in the little finger of my right hand is about to bring that to an end. Went to an orthopedic surgeon, the whole bit- nothing to be done.

 

Those of us who play Irish music know how much sweat and how many years it takes to build a repertoire, and the most painful aspect of this is losing all those tunes. I can still play, but I pay for it.

 

A Tedrow-weilding friend told me the other night I should play concertina since that finger's not used that much, the notes are too high (!). She was laughing at the time, so I'm not sure whether it was a joke.

 

So at this point I'm considering:

 

1. Finding a very easy playing B/C (I played that first) and switching back to that.

2. Switching to piano accordion (I really like Oliver Laughlin, Alan Kelly, and Jimmy Keane)

3. Possibly C/G Anglo

 

What bites about this is the deciding factor will be how much each of these hurt-- and also whether I think I'd still be able to be gettin' after it on that instrument 15-20 years from now. No way to tell the future of course, but I'd really like to avoid another situation such as I'm facing now.

 

So, what do you think? The few times I've had an Anglo in my hands (Bob's shop is about 15 minutes from my house, in fact I went by there Saturday to discuss this very issue with him and he wasn't there), even a simple scale seemed perplexing to me and it seemed to me that playing at any speed would cramp your hands.

 

I'm also mindful of a good friend (plays a Herrington) who taught himself from books and videos, played for a couple of years, then went to Noel Hill's camp and found out he'd spent all that time doing everything wrong. I'd like to avoid that also.

 

Comments welcome.

 

Many thanks,

 

Rick

[PeterT]

So, what do you think? The few times I've had an Anglo in my hands (Bob's shop is about 15 minutes from my house, in fact I went by there Saturday to discuss this very issue with him and he wasn't there), even a simple scale seemed perplexing to me and it seemed to me that playing at any speed would cramp your hands.

Hi Rick, and welcome!

 

I have to answer from the perspective of a non Irish-style Anglo player. If you have a head full of tunes, it seems a shame not to be able to continue playing them, and you will have a head start when it comes to learning a new instrument. My view is that you should go for the C/G Anglo, but get some basic tuition regarding the "across row" style.

 

Whilst I don't play in this style, I've watched several of the top players at close quarters (Noel Hill, Mandy Murray to name but two) and spent a week at the Willie Clancy school, one year. Speed should not be an issue, since many "fast" Irish reels do not rely on fast finger speed, but in utilising the overlap of notes between the two ends of the Anglo. It is the knowledge of the alternate fingerings which produces the "speed".

 

I'm sure that those Forum members who specialise in ITM will offer similar encouragement, plus a lot more expertise.

 

Good luck!

 

Regards,

Peter.

[McIsog]

I've seen Jimmy Keane a number of times and he is totally fun! I'm have not seen the other guys... perhaps soon.

 

1), 2) - no experience, no comment.

 

3) Some of the new concertinas are really light in weight which I am sure you would appreciate. The trade in them is also liquid so you may be able to pick one up used or there is not too much risk in purchasing one new. Bob Tedrow frequently posts available instruments on his web page - he may have a standard Tedrow lying around. They are light, fast, in tune and inexpensive. You already get the diatonic nature of the instrument and know the tunes the move I am sure would be quite fun. They also travel better than the C#/D box you've got.

 

The left had little finger is used for an D/F# in the G row and a G/B in the C row. You won't be using the right hand pinkie quite so much (high A on the C row and very high A#/G# in the G row). Also these instruments are customizable - If needed you can move reeds or reed pairs around to be more accessible

 

Good luck and have some fun with it.

 

Dan

 

Hello the camp.

 

Well, I'm gettin' old and it sucks. I've been playing C#/D box for about 12 years now, and have been able to make it to a decent level of playing. However, it appears that arthritis in the little finger of my right hand is about to bring that to an end. Went to an orthopedic surgeon, the whole bit- nothing to be done.

 

Those of us who play Irish music know how much sweat and how many years it takes to build a repertoire, and the most painful aspect of this is losing all those tunes. I can still play, but I pay for it.

 

A Tedrow-weilding friend told me the other night I should play concertina since that finger's not used that much, the notes are too high (!). She was laughing at the time, so I'm not sure whether it was a joke.

 

So at this point I'm considering:

 

1. Finding a very easy playing B/C (I played that first) and switching back to that.

2. Switching to piano accordion (I really like Oliver Laughlin, Alan Kelly, and Jimmy Keane)

3. Possibly C/G Anglo

 

What bites about this is the deciding factor will be how much each of these hurt-- and also whether I think I'd still be able to be gettin' after it on that instrument 15-20 years from now. No way to tell the future of course, but I'd really like to avoid another situation such as I'm facing now.

 

So, what do you think? The few times I've had an Anglo in my hands (Bob's shop is about 15 minutes from my house, in fact I went by there Saturday to discuss this very issue with him and he wasn't there), even a simple scale seemed perplexing to me and it seemed to me that playing at any speed would cramp your hands.

 

I'm also mindful of a good friend (plays a Herrington) who taught himself from books and videos, played for a couple of years, then went to Noel Hill's camp and found out he'd spent all that time doing everything wrong. I'd like to avoid that also.

 

Comments welcome.

 

Many thanks,

 

Rick

[Larryo]

Hi Rick,

 

As someone who is predeominantly interested in Irish stuff and who had to pack up playing other instruments due to RSI issues, I will say that having a head full of tunes and not getting them out will break your heart and maybe even drive you mad !! I stopped playing for years thinking they( the tunes) would go away but they never did and eventually and I don't understand yet how, but I tried the C/G anglo and am now rarin' to go ! Of course it will provide challenges and there are days when I look at the mandolin in the corner and think "if only I could play you again all the struggle of learning a new instrument would be sorted". But you know- I am not sure I would put the concertina aside now even if a miracle cure was sound. I would agree with Peter on getting a C/G( you will be able to play jigs, reels and hornpipes for ever without needing the little finger on the right but the left hand little finger will be a different matter !!) and also that speed in Irish trad comes if you practice economy of movement as I am sure you know from the C#/D. Another advantage of the C/G is that by using certain sequence of buttons you will be able to mimic the C#/D box choppy/ in and out bellows style as opposed to B/C smoother style- of course the option is very much there on the C/G to play like B/C as well. Which leads to the point as Peter also mentioned of getting some grounding in across the rows style which is just another description for using all the buttons.

Whilst I don't want to take you up too literally on your comments regarding your Herrington playing friend's experience with Noel Hill, I would say that this whole school of thought( mostly put out by Noel) that says that Noel Hill's style and system is the correct one or indeed is one that would imply that any other style is all wrong, is a very very damaging and misleading one. This is not the particular discussion to go into it, but your friend would not be the first to go to one of his schools and have their style rubbished or discounted by Noel,only to find later that Noel Hill doesn't actually have a system- he just has a scale he insists on you using which you will have to deviate away from eventually !! Anyway as I said- not the place

When I got my C/G, rather that learning any tunes in set fingering, I devoted some time to practicing C,G and D scales by experimenting around the buttons.I tried them up and down the middle and G row, exploring options on the accidental row on the outside and I soon could hear the different sounds I could get such as choppy or smooth style, fiddle or box. When I then went to classes and a few worshops, I soon found as lots do, that different players have their own preference in using certain buttons over others in certain runs and I found that having kept an open mind on buttons I could adapt to whatever style a teacher was using and so many different options were opened to me. As you know from playing all this time, your own style and interpretation of the tunes will come out and you can decide what buttons you want to use as your "default"

I wish you all the best and say go for it and if the little finger on right hand is the only place of pain, then you will be fine on the C/G as although McIsog is right about the high A on the C row being played with the little finger on right, this note is more readily available and used on G row with second finger.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Larryo

[Greg Jowaisas]

Rick,

You are not alone in "not going quietly into the night" of deteriorating connective tissue. "Rage, rage, and burn brightly" and don't forget your stretching, physical therapy and glucosamine/chondroitin!

 

I have been a full-time folk musician and primarilly string player for 35 years. I saw an internist ("young" internist) when arthritis started really bothering me in my late thirties. He shook his head and wrote it and me off to aging. In my early 40s I began to think he was right; it was painful to play and less and less fun. On a trip to the library I came across a book called "The Arthritis Cure" written by a medical sports doctor. It made sense to me although my new doctor (I had long ago abandoned the internist) was dubious. It took 6-8 weeks for the glucosamine/chondroitin suppliments to "load", but the results were encouraging. About 5 years after I started this regimine the medical community finally caught up to the benefits of "joint lubrication".

 

My point is this: Don't hesitate to seek additional medical opinions and help. Doctors can be dedicated, intelligent and narrowly focused individuals. Despite the compulsory 2nd year med school course of "Doctor as Messiah" they do not have all the answers.

 

So:

1. 
    
   

Get some more medical opinions and advice.

See abour physical therapy. Stretching becomes more and more important as we age.

Investigate if glucosamine supplimemts might help you and your condition

Give the concertina a try.

 

I should also add that some of us have found the concertina physically demanding. I have worked through a number of elbow, forearm and yes, left little finger problems. All annoying and sometimes frightening but surmountable. As the concertina sage Paul Groff advised, "It takes years to build the musculature and connective tissue support. Be patient."

 

Best of luck and we'll all be here for moral support if you need us.

 

Greg

 

PS. Noel Hill has a strong personality and an evangelist's zeal about his approach to the anglo keyboard. His way is not the only way but after four years of pursuing Irish trad I have come to appreciate his keyboard principles. I'd certainly recommend attending one of his camps.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Greg Jowaisas

[Rick C.]

Many thanks, folks.

 

I appreciate the advice on C/G as well as the input on pain issues. I was able to catch Bob in today (who was an occupational therapist in a former life) and told him what was up.

 

When I mentioned the possibility of piano accordion, he said, "Yeah, but that's not cool". Ha! I can still play mandolin fairly well so I'm not out of Irish music altogether (and I have a National resonator mando which can be a fierce session weapon), but the role of mandolin in Irish music is a discussion for another time and place. I suppose I could sell my Saltarelle and finally get that Foley, but I remember finally getting a Sobell after years of coveting one-- and I didn't like it.

 

One difficult aspect of this dilemma is unless an instrument is just obviously painful up front, it's hard to know whether it's a long term proposition until you can actually play the thing at a level you're accustomed to.

 

More food for thought, thanks. In the meantime I have Karen Tweed and Oliver Laughlin CDs on the way here. And a mando workshop to finish preparing...

 

 

Rick

[McIsog]

Mandolin? Huh? I thought we were talking about squeeze boxen... If you are in Bob's neighborhood make him lend you one to checkout..... (used rochelle?)

[Rick C.]

Mandolin? Huh? I thought we were talking about squeeze boxen... If you are in Bob's neighborhood make him lend you one to checkout..... (used rochelle?)

 

 

I am talking about squeezeboxes-- I can still use mando as my ace in the hole, but I'd rather not. I didn't spend 12 years and thousands of dollars chasing Irish box just to be back where I was 20 years ago, on mandolin. It wouldn't bother me if playing mando hurt (it doesn't), if I could still play box without pain.

 

So another question about playing Anglo that's sort of related-- Though I'm used to playing a diatonic instrument, changing bellows directions AND hands looks to be an awful lot of muscle memory to get down when learning tunes. Which may account for many of the Anglo players I've run into over the years who could play well, but were slow. Not that there's any merit in playing reels at 130 bpm as some do, but face it, unless your name is Martin Hayes you're not going to be able to get away with playing them at 80 bpm, either. So the question-- is this as big of an obstacle as it seems from the outside, or can someone who's been at it say, a year or so knock out a tune a week?

 

Thanks,

 

Rick

[buikligger]

Hi Rick,

 

just some proposal from my not very musical brain: why not try the English concertina for the Irish repertoire you already know? I (almost) never use my right little finger. Left hand i play with the 4 fingers, right hand just 3.

 

Dirk, Belgium

[tombilly]

So the question-- is this as big of an obstacle as it seems from the outside, or can someone who's been at it say, a year or so knock out a tune a week?

 

Query doesn't quite ring true if you've been playing box and mandolin for a dozen years or more?! First thing I would think most folks do with a new instrument who are proficient on others is pick out tunes they know well and work them out. Only takes a few minutes, some obviously are easier to play than others and the more difficult keys/ tunes are put to one side for a while. On that basis, you should surely be able to work out several tunes a night.......

Edited February 21, 2008 by tombilly

[Rick C.]

So the question-- is this as big of an obstacle as it seems from the outside, or can someone who's been at it say, a year or so knock out a tune a week?

 

Query doesn't quite ring true if you've been playing box and mandolin for a dozen years or more?! First thing I would think most folks do with a new instrument who are proficient on others is pick out tunes they know well and work them out. Only takes a few minutes, some obviously are easier to play than others and the more difficult keys/ tunes are put to one side for a while. On that basis, you should surely be able to work out several tunes a night.......

 

Maybe I didn't phrase that question the best way- what I meant to ask was whether many players continue to struggle with the mechanics of "working" the instrument even after being at it for quite a while. Of course, with any instruments some tunes just lay out more easily than others. Maybe that's not a good question...

[tombilly]

I don't know - over to people playing longer. I still find it much easier to pick up a tune by ear on whistle/ flute but I've surprised myself by just following the tunes in my head on the concertina. Still go the odd wrong direction on the bellows or end up playing on the 'wrong' row but sure, I guess that'll sort itself out in time.

Edited February 21, 2008 by tombilly

[polkabeast]

The autoharp is a good alternative. You only need a finger and thumb on one hand and at least two fingers on the other.

 

That's an oversimplification. But still.

[m3838]

Check Panpipes.

No hands involved (well, to a point). Easy-peasy to learn, up to 5 octaves, fully chromatic, tunable, great full sound. Not too cool for some, way cool for others.

http://www.panfluteshop.com/shop/index.htm.../shop/main.html

I'm very intrigued myself.

Or check Powers Harmonicas. Super-duper playing of Irish traditional music. Never heard playing like this, very hauting.

[Rick C.]

Panpipes, autoharp... Nose flute, maybe....

 

The reason I'm asking this, and please understand this is not flame bait, is to try to figure out whether Anglo C/G would for me be either another dead end due to physical considerations, or something that would take years to figure out before being able to get down to the business of reclaiming tunes I'm about to lose.

 

Here's another reason- And I'm speaking only in the context of ITM here-- As a former uillean piper I've noticed similarites between pipers and Anglo players that I've never mentioned until now- That is, a large percentage of the players in the US I've run into on these instruments are very enthusiastic about their instrument, may own more than one, can quote unimagineably obscure trivia about the instruments, have been at it for years-- yet still obviously struggle at actually playing the things past the intermediate stage. As for the pipes, I know them to be a hard row to hoe for many reasons. My Lynch half-set was a wonderful sounding instrument (except for outdoor gigs in the summer when tuning was hopeless), but ultimately I sold the pipes, bought a Saltarelle box , and never looked back. As with any instrument, there are those who are content to make a career of Out on the Ocean, Egan's Polka, Swallowtail, and the like. Not me.

 

What I'm really after is trying to (without investing 5 years of my life into the instrument) is get an idea of whether this is a road I could/should pursue. So I've come to a place where Anglo players may be able to shed some light on this issue for me-- and I do appreciate the input.

 

 

Rick

Edited February 22, 2008 by Rick C.

[Theo]

What I'm really after is trying to (without investing 5 years of my life into the instrument) is get an idea of whether this is a road I could/should pursue. So I've come to a place where Anglo players may be able to shed some light on this issue for me-- and I do appreciate the input.

 

Well my tuppence worth is this. I'm a D/G box player, and I've messed around with playing C/G anglo, and I find the differences are quite significant. I play across the rows or along the rows with equal ease on the D/G, but C/G anglo is almost like learning a new instrument. The fact that its push-pull makes me expect it to be similar, but the cross row fingering is so different that for me at any rate it would be too much of a learning investment. So I've started learning fiddle!

 

My guess is that moving from B/C box to anglo might require a similar amount of re-learning. The only way to find out is to try.

[tombilly]

Can't comment on C#/D box which I think you played more recently. But if your're handy enough on the B/C, there are obvious similarities with the C/G anglo - tunes in G should come very easily as you can mostly play them on the C row, same as B/C box. The catchy thing is that F# is on the draw rather than the push, which takes a little brain realignment and the low F# is awkwardly placed, compared to B/C. Tunes in modal flavours of A are handy enough. Key of D is harder for me and again C# differs from B/C box - bit more jumping around the rows. Sequences like F#ED etc. are harder but of course, you can always simplify them - if you play flute, you get used to dropping notes and simplifying phrases! The biggest difference to B/C box, it seems to me, is that sometimes it suits to play some phrases on the inside row and sometimes on the middle and your B/C d/e are therefore sometimes not only different buttons but different directions - that can catch you out.

Anyway, you can only figure it out for yourself - go borrow one or get a 'cheap' anglo. Worse things to spend your cash on!!

[Larryo]

I would say that I understand perfectly Rick's thinking on this and if I may I will say the following which it goes without saying is only for me. In the eighties, my memory tells me that I was quite a capable tenor banjo player.Then one day it was gone. My right hand packed up and despite visits to docs, quacks, healers etc there was never a cure found. I was devastated- it had been my whole life( which no doubt was far from healthy)and RSI hadn't even been heard of in Ireland at that time. Eventually out of desperation I took up the fiddle and after a few years could make a go of it- well without scraping and caterwailing. But it became clear that as well as an elbow complaint flaring up, it wasn't for me.

Then there was a bit of a strop thrown. If I can't play the banjo, I'm not playing anything. Boo boo de boo. People would ask was I not playing and I was glad to say that I was finished playing- for good. A few years ago, after many years saying "I was never playing again", I tried playing the banjo left handed and after a few years of simple tunes at home, I realised that it wasn't going to work, that it was never going to get better than that. Then for for no apparent reason, I borrowed an anglo for a few days and thought "this is great...a doddle" and off I went and got one. Of course the honeymoon period and experience had misled me. Yes, a few tunes did roll off easy enough and strange that Rick would mention Out OnThe Ocean because that was one of the first. All of a sudden it was a case of how hard can this be and visions of Carnegie Hall started to cross my obviously unreliable brain !But then reality bit. Out On The Ocean could be played different ways? The low F# was a bit issue. Tunes in D major became a problem. Tunes like Doon Reel which I would played with my eyes closed were breaking my heart. And then as Rick touched on, my thinking was "if I can't be better than Out On The Ocean I am not interested" I looked at the old instruments and remembered playing reel after reel in sessions and possibly talking or ordering a pint at the same time and here I was struggling with the F# D in Saddle The Pony ! No good ! I didn't want to waste my time practicing and find that I was not going to make the old grade and things weren't made better by seeing the younger generation playing tunes without any problems whilst I was lucky to be able to play one note in three when playing in my class.

But then I realised "what choice do I have". Do I give up now because there are no guarantees? When am I going to stop comparing today to yesteryear. I am 52, time is not on my side for getting good enough to get playing in sessions. I have hundreds and hundreds of tunes in my head but I might never make it ! But what can I do?

Today it's about trying to accept that whatever joy I get from playing the anglo is better than it was a few years ago. My string playing days are over( for now) and the best I can do is try to enjoy playing the concertina and be happyish with what I have. But it is not easy as I said when I see friends going out to sessions every week, to accept that a certain instrument is over for me and I do wish I had a guarantee that I will "make it" on the concertina because then the practicing would become "worthwhile" . And no matter what, we are ambitious by nature and whilst we might fool ourselves that we will be happy when we "can just play this piece" or " if I could just play this or that then I wouldn't want to learn anything else" it seldom works out like that. But if you had told me a few years ago that I could be playing Out On The Ocean relatively easily I'd have grabbed that. But now I want more ! And tomorrow when I get more I will want a different more !

Angelina Carberry's father lost the use of one of his fingers and with the help of Mairtin O'Connor changed boxes and came back after three or four years of solitary practice. Siobhan Peoples lost the use of one of her fingers for a while and had to adapt. It can be done.

No more than anyone else, I can't answer Rick's questions but I do understand his thinking whilst at the same time I am not trying to say that the above applies to anyone but me

Edited February 22, 2008 by Larryo