A Machine To "play In" (break In) Reeds?

[ragtimer]

Would it be worthwhile to build a simple mechanical setup to break in (play in) the reeds in a new concertina?

 

A simple setup would be a vacuum cleaner or other blower, hosed into a box that you could screw several reeds down to, and it could keep them sounding all dday (when nobody's around

 

To break in push and pull reeds evenly, you could have a motor drive a flywheel with a connecting rod to a small bellows, that would alternately push and pull pressure and suction to the box of reeds.

 

This could give several hours of play-in time to reeds and save many hours of playing, and would be especially eeffective for high or odd notes that don't get used much.

 

You come home at the end of the workday and put another set of the reeds on the box to run tomorrow.

 

Questions:

Is playing-in really that significant on reeds? Will it make them sound on lower pressures and play more quickly once broken in? Will the reeds settle to their ultimate pitch, so they don't have to be returned after a few months in the instrument?

 

Could the mechanical process wear out the reeds prematurely?

 

How hard should the reeds be blown and sucked on? At a fairly loud level, I'd guess.

 

I wonder if any reed makers or tina builders actually put their reeds thru a process like this? Such a "burn-in" was standard procedure in some branches of industry. --Mike K.

[chris]

Hi

this sounds like an attempt to 'wear out' your concertina without having had the enjoyment of 'playing it in' yourself . surely the fun is in wearing it out by playing it. I seem to recall,on ebay, there was a concertina type instrument using something like pianola rolls.Could this be an answer I guess you either don't have anyone living near you. Perhaps you do and don't like them

have fun?????

chris

[Greg Jowaisas]

Mike,

I have to wonder if "breaking in" doesn't have more to do with the instrument as a whole system rather than the reeds or isolated parts.

 

Many of us have experienced or heard stories of instruments coming out of the closet and seeming stiff or not playing to their full potential. I think many of these instruments improve as they are played. Perhaps the parts "settle in"and work better as a system. Sometimes the improvement is slow and doesn't meet our expectations and we become impatient.

 

Even the brand new "wonder" instruments that sound great "right out of the box"and are built to high tolerances like the Dippers, Carrolls and Wakkers seem to improve with time and playing.

 

The quality of the reeds in an instrument certainly deserve our attention but lots of other factors are involved in having an instrument play well.

 

I have a Linota that seemed stiff. Good sound but so physical to play it was no pleasure. I even lent it to a strapping young man to play for a year in hopes he would "loosen" the reeds up. No luck. His chest seemed to get bigger by the end of a year but the instrument was no easier to play. I tried a number of remedies but it wasn't until Malcolm Clapp steered me towards thinking about the interplay of spring pressure, instrument weight and reed response that I was able to make significant progress.

 

Perhaps the engineer oriented or metellurgical experts can comment on the physical effects of exercising reeds. As a concertina repairer I know I cannot leave a high b on the tuning bench for very long with the vacuum pump running. Metal fatigue and subsequent material failure is not a pretty thing!

 

I salute your efforts to find a way to improve the sound of new reeds. I'm in Chris' camp however in thinking the best way to get better sound out of the player/instrument system is to put the reeds in your favorite instrument and practice, practice, practice! Good luck.

 

Greg

[Richard Morse]

Would it be worthwhile to build a simple mechanical setup to break in (play in) the reeds in a new concertina?

I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile but I think it's a great idea!

A simple setup would be a vacuum cleaner or other blower, hosed into a box that you could screw several reeds down to, and it could keep them sounding all dday (when nobody's around

A vacuum cleaner is far too powerful to run reeds with (unless you had an incredible bleed system) as they have over 100" of water column suction. We use a player piano pump which comes with a continuously-variable speed control. At max they suck about 45"... and run very quietly.

 

Most people play concertinas around 1" to 2" of wc. The best vintage reeds have a range of about .06" to 3". In order to get the vacuum motor to be that sensitive we have a bleed system in addition to running the motor at very low speed.

You come home at the end of the workday and put another set of the reeds on the box to run tomorrow.

Easier to set the thing up to play all the reeds at once, and at variable pressures including many abrupt start/stop cycles. As it takes months of normal playing to "break in" reeds a machine may be able to do this is in a few non-stop weeks.

Is playing-in really that significant on reeds?

Absolutely, in my experience. Though there are a lot of things that get played in which will affect the tone, tune, and playability of the instrument. There's also the consideration of the qualities of the various parts. It seems to me that the better boxes play in to become better and often the cheaper boxes don't as much (usually wearing out or failing instead!).

Will it make them sound on lower pressures and play more quickly once broken in?

Depends on how they're broken in. If you really lean on it for this period the reeds will be less responsive and not very clear sounding. I see this happen a lot with melodeons sold to new Morris musicians. They wail away at them and and wonder where the sound went after a season. No amount of reed tip setting seems to make the reeds sensitive or result in a decent dynamic range that a well played in box would have. while I *think* well played-in reeds will be more responsive, they should be reset once they have been played in for maximum sensitivity and response. It's not automatic as a part of playing-in process.

Will the reeds settle to their ultimate pitch, so they don't have to be returned after a few months in the instrument?

I don't think playing-in will change the pitch of the reeds (by themselves) any though other things WILL affect the pitch of the reeds - mainly the valves. Playing in will limber up the valves and work out any base securance issues. This usually will make the pitch drift a bit higher. Once the pitches stabilize you can have your box's tuning touched up and it will stay there for a long time.

Could the mechanical process wear out the reeds prematurely?

Not appreciably if done at appropriate pressures.

How hard should the reeds be blown and sucked on? At a fairly loud level, I'd guess.

If I were to design such a device, I'd have it cycle between .1" to 1.5" with abrupt and ramping starts for the first week, then up to 2" for the second week and then up to 2.5" during the 3rd week with a few 3"ers here and there.

 

-- Rich --

[Christian Husmann]

Would it be worthwhile to build a simple mechanical setup to break in (play in) the reeds in a new concertina?

 

Hm, no, I´d say. From what I know as well from other reeded instruments (especially new ones) it´s like having a new car that has to be treated properly with long lasting results. With the accordion I bought some time ago it was the same - it had to be "driven" at the beginning - same thing with a vintage concertina tuned before I bought it. Taking it out of the case for the first time I thought it wouldn´t be possible to play it softly. It was simply loud and harsh. With more and more playing this changed and is still changing. And it helps me as well to get to know the instrument better. It was and is worth the effort to play and play and play

 

Christian

[Dave Gray]

I don't doubt that playing seems to improve the tone and responce over time, but I'm curious as to what is physically happening. I can see the valves and wood work changing due to playing, but how do the reeds change (maybe they don't and it's the other changes that are influencing tone).

 

Assuming that the spring steel of the reed is not taken beyond its elastic limit, does anyone know the mechanism by which they improve after "breaking in".

 

Dave

[mike averill]

I suspect what is really needed is a mixture of things; temperature and humidity cycling to route out basic problems with tolerences and instabilities in the main materials, as instument makers have a tendancy to aim for fairly stable conditions in their workshops to facilitate good tuning and thus wont experience these problems. Playing I would expect to affect the more malliable parts of the instrument, mainly valves; breaking in definately has a major effect on new valves, and thus things like response speed of reeds and fine tuning.

Edited October 5, 2007 by mike averill

[Dirge]

You'd expect the reeds to temper/harden in some way with use I agree, but I was talking to a man who buys and sells violins recently and the subject of 'played in instruments' came up. (I can personally vouch for old squeezeboxes that have been pushed back into use needing a year plus of regular bashing before they really start to sing; you'll understand that many Maccans haven't been regularly played for decades...) He said it's the same for fiddles, they feel and sound appreciably better after a period of regular use. I asked if he put a premium on an instrument that came from a regular player and he said no, but they always sold a lot faster.

 

How an antique glorified cigar box changes for the better with regular vibration is difficult to understand, but perhaps the wood plays a part in the change in a 'box?

[ragtimer]

Would it be worthwhile to build a simple mechanical setup to break in (play in) the reeds in a new concertina?

I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile but I think it's a great idea!

Thanks, Rich. I'm glad nobody laughed out loud (so far)

A vacuum cleaner is far too powerful to run reeds with (unless you had an incredible bleed system) as they have over 100" of water column suction. We use a player piano pump which comes with a continuously-variable speed control. At max they suck about 45"... and run very quietly.

O yes, I knew that -- a vacuum cleaner is too much for organ pipes even.

 

Anyway, rather than wade thru the nested quotes (which Invision's editor runs all together in mishmash fashion), I'll go by memory.

 

It seems that playing-in also includes the flap valves. And I would guesss the pads and action too -- as the pads hammer themselves thinner, and the felt udner the buttons compacts, the total pad travel increases so the pads open wider. I know one row of pads on my "new" Hayden is not openign as wide as they should.

 

So the entire instrument needs breaking in. FWIW, I feel that my Stagi 46 Hayden played in very nicely. Now if those stiff button springs weren't fighting my left hand fingers ...

 

Also you said that playing in reeds under loud pressure exclusively, will spoil them for anythign else. So a break-in machine would have to be very smart in applying various pressure cycles, and include pads for start/stop emulation.

 

It would have to be computer controlled. You want to build one, Rich, I'd offer to help program it -- but somehow, I suspect we're stuck with playing in by hand.

--Mike K.

[Leo]

Would this work?

 

Maybe a concertina bellows breakin machine:

Myron Florin Concertina Player

 

Thanks

Leo