If They Can Build An English...

[Hooves]

If they can build an English, shouldn't they be able to build a duet just as well?

 

 

Maybe another instrument in the Jack, Jackie, (Jack-xxx)* line might be a duet.

 

 

*(insert any "Jack" name you feel appropiate.)

[m3838]

If they can build an English, shouldn't they be able to build a duet just as well?

 

 

Maybe another instrument in the Jack, Jackie, (Jack-xxx)* line might be a duet.

 

 

*(insert any "Jack" name you feel appropiate.)

Wim Wakker and his wife ("they") have plans to build Hayden Duet. Only the first one is going to be very small. And the bigger one will cost you arm and leg.

But business wise it's better to concentrate on English and Anglo, I guess. Bigger market (as small as it is). Unfortunately Wim wants to eat. Preferably everyday.

[Dirge]

*(insert any "Jack" name you feel appropiate.)

Jack-and-Jill?

 

I'm sure you're right and they could do one, but you get the impression they're going flat out already supplying the much larger English and Anglo markets without needing to bother with the 'minority interest' duet.

 

Even if they did it would be yet more small Haydens, getting people interested just to find they had little hope of graduating to a decent sized instrument. If no one will go into serious production of bigger Haydens then they should make 'entry level' Maccans. At least then someone buying one has the option to progress to a better instrument without having to learn a completely different system.

 

Which is not, Brian, to knock your system, just a pragmatic comment on the current state of duet affairs.

[Hooves]

*(insert any "Jack" name you feel appropiate.)

Jack-and-Jill?

 

I'm sure you're right and they could do one, but you get the impression they're going flat out already supplying the much larger English and Anglo markets without needing to bother with the 'minority interest' duet.

 

Even if they did it would be yet more small Haydens, getting people interested just to find they had little hope of graduating to a decent sized instrument. If no one will go into serious production of bigger Haydens then they should make 'entry level' Maccans. At least then someone buying one has the option to progress to a better instrument without having to learn a completely different system.

 

 

 

Actually, although I really like my MacCaan, I think there are probably enough entry level McCaans to satifsy the market, as people graduate to larger instruments (if they can find and handle them).

 

I was thinking more on the Crane line for a production concertina, such as the 55 key Crane. I have never played one, but looking at the key diagrams I think it would be a good system. Dont' get me wrong Dirge, I plan to keep working on the McCaan, but I have to admit the Crane system looks like it would be a nice alternative.

 

I might change my mind if I got my hands on one and gave it a go for a few weeks.

 

Though I wonder which would win for chromatic playing, for use in ragtime and jazz.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Hooves

[Daniel Hersh]

Is their Hayden going to be a Chinese-made one like the Jackie etc.? I wouldn't have thought that the Hayden market would be big enough to justify the start-up cost. My guess based on my sense of the market would be that they'd get more sales if they first expanded their line to include a G/D Anglo.

 

*(insert any "Jack" name you feel appropiate.)

Jack-and-Jill?

 

I'm sure you're right and they could do one, but you get the impression they're going flat out already supplying the much larger English and Anglo markets without needing to bother with the 'minority interest' duet.

 

Even if they did it would be yet more small Haydens, getting people interested just to find they had little hope of graduating to a decent sized instrument. If no one will go into serious production of bigger Haydens then they should make 'entry level' Maccans. At least then someone buying one has the option to progress to a better instrument without having to learn a completely different system.

Actually, although I really like my MacCaan, I think there are probably enough entry level McCaans to satifsy the market, as people graduate to larger instruments (if they can find and handle them).

 

I was thinking more on the Crane line for a production concertina, such as the 55 key Crane. I have never played one, but looking at the key diagrams I think it would be a good system. Dont' get me wrong Dirge, I plan to keep working on the McCaan, but I have to admit the Crane system looks like it would be a nice alternative.

 

I might change my mind if I got my hands on one and gave it a go for a few weeks.

 

Though I wonder which would win for chromatic playing, for use in ragtime and jazz.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Daniel Hersh

[Dirge]

It's my theory that, when you get good, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other between the systems, that they all work equally well. All systems, even the dreaded Jeffries, seem to have their protagonists. I think the difference is in ease of 'getting started'. And that seems to be in inverse proportion to availability.

 

Hayden's are (I am told) very intuitive, but there are very few quality instruments about. Nowhere to go once you're ready to chuck the waterwings. I can believe otherwise committed players have been lost to the fold because they found their Stagi limiting and there was nothing to be done about it.

 

Crane looks a lot more logical than Maccan (when I was looking at one recently it seemed to me that you could almost 'bar' up the left hand to get chords without moving your fingers) but there are a lot less about. There is a pool of 'advanced' instruments but it is small, so at any time a Crane player is limited for choice. It might be the best compromise system for a beginner at the moment and I see your argument for making Cranes.

 

(OH I just had an awful vision; someone makes a cheap Crane, they go like hot cakes, people start seeking the antique instruments to move on to, there's an immediate chronic shortage and in no time Cnet is filled with long circular discussions about the cost of Cranes, the morality of owning more than one Crane, what sort of player is entitled to own a Crane, dealers driving up the cost of Cranes...)

 

Maccan is the most off putting to a beginner or casual fiddler but there is a decent choice of instruments to suit the advancing player's needs if you pass the early hurdle, so you might actually produce the occasional decent player! Yes there are plenty of 46's about but they still command twice the price of a Jackie and, as you pointed out, it ought to be possible to do something near the Jackie price. I bought an 'as new' s/h Jackie for £120 recently. It needs a duet at that sort of level of accessibility to really spread the word.

 

Reading that back over I think perhaps a mass production duet should be a 56-ish key model; that's big enough to be really useful, it would do for the medium term as well as short term, so the big problem of where a beginner goes next is partially sidestepped. All right, it would be pricier, but if you had been able to buy a new Hayden or Crane 56 for the price of your 46 Maccan wouldn't you have been tempted? I think I might well be a Hayden player under those circumstances. (and still with 5 years to wait for my next instrument). I think they'd sell to players of other systems too.

[Marien]

I wonder which would win for chromatic playing, for use in ragtime and jazz.

 

My Crane beated my MacCann. It's the ease of transposing that did it.

Marien

[JimLucas]

Is their Hayden going to be a Chinese-made one like the Jackie etc.? I wouldn't have thought that the Hayden market would be big enough to justify the start-up cost. My guess based on my sense of the market would be that they'd get more sales if they first expanded their line to include a G/D Anglo.

There's something more basic than expected market size.

 

Both the Jackie (English) and the Rochelle (anglo) are 30-button instruments. I'm sure if Wim could reasonably have fit more reeds into the Jackie, he would have, so I don't think he could do it for a duet, either.

 

I believe that historically the minimum number of buttons for the Crane was 35 and for the Maccann 38 (though 46 for the Maccann seems to be the standard "entry level"). I think that only 30 buttons would be inadequate to take reasonable advantage of the features that otherwise make the duet layouts attractive.

 

For more than 30 buttons, a very different design would be needed. And so a different price class. A pity!

[m3838]

I wonder which would win for chromatic playing, for use in ragtime and jazz.

 

Hm. Since the concertina is so different from jazz and ragtime instruments, it needs serious re-thinking when attempting to play in those styles. As a result the style is going to be very different, so the system doesn't really matter, I think. I actually think the more distant the concertina system is from piano, the better it will be suited to those styles. So the EC perhabs will hold the first place, then the Anglo. Duets will probably fall into the abiss of following piano logic and will thus fail to convince the listener.

[Richard Morse]

Since the concertina is so different from jazz and ragtime instruments, it needs serious re-thinking when attempting to play in those styles. As a result the style is going to be very different, so the system doesn't really matter, I think.

But didn't the concertina emulate pipes and whistles for Irish? And the resultant concertina style is near identical right down to so many of the ornaments.

I actually think the more distant the concertina system is from piano, the better it will be suited to those styles.

Because piano is NOT played in jazz and ragtime?

So the EC perhabs will hold the first place, then the Anglo. Duets will probably fall into the abiss of following piano logic and will thus fail to convince the listener.

EC might do well in jazz or ragtime as lead "voice" (like clarinet?) though would be really limited as one can't bend notes or slide smoothly through pitches. I would imagine that anglos would be severely hampered by the chromaticy and the many keys of jazz and ragtime. The vast majority of ragtime I'm familiar with was/is written on - and performed on - piano. And the type of concertina which can play multiple independent parts best (such as piano can), is a duet.

 

-- Rich --

[wim wakker]

I frequently get emails from rather confused people that, based on info from C.net, think that we were going to introduce a Jackie type Hayden, and that the Wakker concertinas have accordion reeds, etc…

When I saw this thread, I thought it might be a good time to get things straighten out a little…

I apologize for misusing this topic for that….

 

 

We (Concertina Connection v.o.f.) will not be making entry level Hayden duets (like the Jackie and Rochelle), simply because the market is way too small.

 

However, we will introduce an ‘intermediate’ anglo model (C/G Wheatstone and Jeffries) later this year. This instrument, the Clover, is comparable to the available hybrid concertinas (with accordion reeds), in both materials (European reeds, etc) and quality. It is based on our Phoenix model (but with accordion reeds) and positioned between our entry level instruments (Jackie/Rochelle) and our hand made instruments with real concertina reeds. We will of course offer the same trade in program for these instruments.

 

Both our entry and (coming) intermediate concertinas are hybrids (accordion reeds). Although I designed them, own the rights, supervise the production, etc., we (my wife Karen and I) do not make them ourselves… we don’t make concertinas with accordion reeds.

 

What we do make are the ‘Wakker’ concertinas, which all are hand made and have ‘real’ concertina reeds. They are not really new on the market, we’ve delivered around 70 instruments so far, but for some reason the assumption that they have accordion reeds persists…

At the moment we make 7 anglo models (C/G, C#/G#, Bb/F, G/D and F/C), 7 English models (treble, tenor, Tenor-treble, Baritone and soprano), MIDI english and anglo models, and Hayden duets.

 

Although the ‘official’ introduction of the W-H1 Hayden model will be in a few weeks, our order book for 2007 is already full (some people placed their orders way in advance). It is not true that we only make a 46 key model. We just reserved a few slots in our 2007 order book for the 46k model. We also make a large Hayden, which will be available late 2008 (we could not fit them in our order book any earlier).

All our Hayden models are octagonal (8 sided), have raised ends, 7/8 fold bellows, short scaled reeds (as do the Dipper and Dickinson duets), hand made concertina reeds ( brass frames, steel tongues).

It seems that the people that actually place orders, tend to go with the 46 key model, also for financial reasons…I’ve heard the same goes for the other few makers of Hayden duets with concertina reeds...

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection v.o.f.

[m3838]

1.No Rich, you misunderstood my point.

2.An Yes Rich, it's exactly what I was talking about.

 

I'm not a musician, but I'm a listener, so....

1. The point I'm making is this. A Ragtime mostly was written on a piano. So unless you play a piano, your version of ragtime will be very strange. To make a convincing version, you must diverge from the original, for the result to be authentic to your isntrument without making people wonder why in the world you are not just play it on Piano? In this case, the further you go, the better.

No, I don't think EC will be a good substitute for Clarinet. Soundwise clarinet is more flexible and richer, has more powerful presence. EC on the other hand, is capable of harmonies. Been such a unique instrumet, it need not to emulate Clarinet.

2. Delicate sharp attacks of sincopated high notes, counterpointed by fundamental bass line, played with different volume (!), having natural decay is unaccessible to Concertina, yet most peiople will fall into the trap, thinking Duet IS like a piano, which it ISN'T.

 

So one can make his life easier, just poundng away a stripped down version of ragtime on his Duet, making people wonder. Or get down to business of re-arranging the piece and come up with the original version, keeping the essence of the source.

The real question is where to find such an arranger?

A pity concertinas didn't exist during Mozart's time. or Joplin's father didn't buy 60 buttton Crane for his son instead of banjo.

 

But the proof is in the Pancakes.

[Hooves]

1.No Rich, you misunderstood my point.

2.An Yes Rich, it's exactly what I was talking about.

 

I'm not a musician, but I'm a listener, so....

1. The point I'm making is this. A Ragtime mostly was written on a piano. So unless you play a piano, your version of ragtime will be very strange. To make a convincing version, you must diverge from the original, for the result to be authentic to your isntrument without making people wonder why in the world you are not just play it on Piano? In this case, the further you go, the better.

No, I don't think EC will be a good substitute for Clarinet. Soundwise clarinet is more flexible and richer, has more powerful presence. EC on the other hand, is capable of harmonies. Been such a unique instrumet, it need not to emulate Clarinet.

2. Delicate sharp attacks of sincopated high notes, counterpointed by fundamental bass line, played with different volume (!), having natural decay is unaccessible to Concertina, yet most peiople will fall into the trap, thinking Duet IS like a piano, which it ISN'T.

 

So one can make his life easier, just poundng away a stripped down version of ragtime on his Duet, making people wonder. Or get down to business of re-arranging the piece and come up with the original version, keeping the essence of the source.

The real question is where to find such an arranger?

A pity concertinas didn't exist during Mozart's time. or Joplin's father didn't buy 60 buttton Crane for his son instead of banjo.

 

But the proof is in the Pancakes.

 

Well actaully I'm working on Ragtime Guitar and Delta blues. Although Ragtime started on piano, there are quitea few rags that sound really good on guitar.

 

My observation when I'm attempting to Rag-it-up, is I play a lot of chromatic passages. I like the open E tuning, but have also used open G and D (since open D is so much like the DADGAD tunign used by some celtic guitar players).

 

I should not have used the Wakker series concertinas as an example, I meant in general all concertina builders. Of course if you can make any type of concertina you can make the others!

 

It would be interesting to get potential quotes form the pro-builders as to how much they would charge to build say a 55 key Crane duet. I mean this as a point of comparison, if any pro-builders out there actaully read my posts (a handful at best) it would be nice to be private messaged (PM) as to what it might cost, no names mentioned, Hooves' Honor!

 

Related but slightly different topic -

 

I know duet is supposed to have overlap, but I wonder if there has ever been developed a system with no overlap at all, that might faciltate bass with one hand and treble with the other, that seems more like a piano to me than the current duet systems (not that it needs to be anyhting like a piano).

 

Oh-oh, am I looking at the anglo again...

Edited June 15, 2007 by Hooves

[JimLucas]

I know duet is supposed to have overlap, but I wonder if there has ever been developed a system with no overlap at all, that might faciltate bass with one hand and treble with the other, that seems more like a piano to me than the current duet systems....

Quite the contrary.

The piano has 100% overlap, since both hands can range over the entire keyboard.

[Hooves]

I know duet is supposed to have overlap, but I wonder if there has ever been developed a system with no overlap at all, that might faciltate bass with one hand and treble with the other, that seems more like a piano to me than the current duet systems....

Quite the contrary.

The piano has 100% overlap, since both hands can range over the entire keyboard.

 

 

O.K., you got me on that one. Good point. However I would like to see you play the far treble side with your left and the far bass side with your right at the same time without turning backwards.

 

Allthough I only studied piano briefly, for beginers at least there is a tendency for bass side with left hand and treble with right, at least thats how I was being taught.

 

But the query remains: is there anybody who has a reference to such a non-overlapping system? I looked quickly on the web at definitions for "duet" and I didn't see any that siad the melody of the two parts had to overlap

 

As for me, I'm sticking it out with my MaCaan and keeping an eye out for a Crane, puttinga few squeezes on the button accordion, and in the back of my mind designing that perfect set of keys...

[Dirge]

As soon as you start using all the range of the duet, which is perhaps when you start playing written music, as opposed to trad stuff in a position you have chosen yourself for convenience, you need the overlap. Difficult right hand fingering sequences can be magically resolved just by playing a few of the notes on the overlap area of the left hand. Throw away the overlap and you severely limit the brute's versatility. It feels odd to suddenly play just one melody note, say, on the left but it's a valuable tool for producing flowing playing.

 

The only Jeffries I've tried was a 56 button with hardly any overlap owned by our own Wolosp (Hi Paul! It was 56, wasn't it?) He was making nice noises with it when last heard but I thought then (and now) that the lack of crossover is a limitation. The trade off is he has a better range for 'only' 56 keys.

[Marien]

your version of ragtime will be very strange.

 

this sounds like fun and may get you to music never heard before.

[Marien]

But the query remains: is there anybody who has a reference to such a non-overlapping system?

 

Perhaps an ancient mini concertina (chromatic)? I am glad that my concertina´s have overlap. On the Crane, When playing chords (on the left hand) I can play melodyat the same time (on the right hand) with notes that are also in the chord.

 

Talking about other instruments, how about a recorder? Would you say it has overlap?

 

Marien.