Changing Notes

[david fabre]

Hi everibody,

 

I own a vintage 40-button anglo Wheatsone which is going to be retuned

and I'm considering customising some of the buttons. I have several ideas of note changes,

but before doing anything I would like to know what can be safely done and what shouldn't.

Here are the questions I'm wondering :

 

- How far can a reed be retuned (up or down) ?

- If replacing a reed and keeping the same reed shoe, how far can we go ?

and who could do that ?

- Same question if I change with a second-hand reed ?

- Is there any objections to switching some of the existing reeds, in particular if

they differ in size ? I feel that putting a smaller reed and fixing it with a piece

of cardboard could work. What if the reed is larger and the slot has to be enlarged ?

Has anybody done this ?

- Any other possibilities ?

 

Thanks for your help.

If somebody is interested I can send the layout of my instrument and the detail of

the changes I'm considering.

David

[DavidFR]

Hi David,

 

I'm sure you'll get more detailed answers from the more techically adept on the forum, but a couple quick issues to consider:

- Reeds and instruments can be retuned, such as my G/D lachenal (retuned from Ab/Eb). However, it's much better to have an expert do it, and it really depends on the specific changes you want done. People have told bad stories in the forums of Jeffries Duets retuned to be Anglos.

- Different reeds for different notes can fit in the same reed frame; I haven't counted the different sizes, but I remember Geoffrey Crabb saying they used six different frame sizes for a regular Anglo.

- I don't think it's a good idea to put different sized reed shoes in other slots. The chambers, slots, and vents are all tailored (in a good instrument) to the requirements and resonance of that particular reed. You can probably get away with some amount of change, but not a radical change of pitch. Unless you want to do substantial amounts of woodwork and chamber resizing.

 

-David

 

Hi everibody,

 

I own a vintage 40-button anglo Wheatsone which is going to be retuned

and I'm considering customising some of the buttons. I have several ideas of note changes,

but before doing anything I would like to know what can be safely done and what shouldn't.

Here are the questions I'm wondering :

 

- How far can a reed be retuned (up or down) ?

- If replacing a reed and keeping the same reed shoe, how far can we go ?

and who could do that ?

- Same question if I change with a second-hand reed ?

- Is there any objections to switching some of the existing reeds, in particular if

they differ in size ? I feel that putting a smaller reed and fixing it with a piece

of cardboard could work. What if the reed is larger and the slot has to be enlarged ?

Has anybody done this ?

- Any other possibilities ?

 

Thanks for your help.

If somebody is interested I can send the layout of my instrument and the detail of

the changes I'm considering.

David

[Dana Johnson]

- How far can a reed be retuned (up or down) ?

- If replacing a reed and keeping the same reed shoe, how far can we go ?

and who could do that ?

- Same question if I change with a second-hand reed ?

- Is there any objections to switching some of the existing reeds, in particular if

they differ in size ? I feel that putting a smaller reed and fixing it with a piece

of cardboard could work. What if the reed is larger and the slot has to be enlarged ?

Has anybody done this ?

David

I currently use the same size reed slot for 4 semi tones,(for most reeds) and change shoe sizes half as often except for the lower notes where the reed lengths are changing by larger amounts. I simply wouldn't retune a reed except to bring it into modern pitch by more than was required to bring int in tune. Better to save it and use a second reed of the right pitch in it's place. Yes it can be done, but mostly not undone. I recently weighted my low F to a low D, which I love and won't ever go back, but by removing the weight, I could. I did switch a Eb to a C# for someone who wanted the Jeffires layout reversed, but those were my own reeds and I could make them be what ever I wanted. The sizes were pertty close ( on either side of the size break) so they still sounded quite good.

 

High reeds often have thin tips and are easily ruined by any work what so ever. lowering a reed by filing can make it weaker than it should be, and you are better off weighting it slightly to drop the pitch, which will retain the right stiffness.

 

If you can, get a replacement reed and shoe that is the right size, and do the work on that. Reeds need firm contact with the dovetail walls. a thin paper shim sometimes used for a loose reed is ok, but cardboard is too soft and will dull the reed sound at best and make it sluggish at worst. You would also need to keep the reed centered over the port in the reed pan. If you were dead set on the change, the reed dovetail could be resized with wood glued in place ( with a reverseable adhesive ) to fit a smaller shoe. Enlarging the slot is more likely out of the question since the chambers size will be only wide enough to accommodate the reeds it was made for. Better then to use a weighted reed for the lower note ( you can easily drop a couple of whole tones or more that way and still have an acceptable if not ideal reed. But with 40 buttons, don't you have some alternative fingerings you could use to cover your needs?

Dana

[david fabre]

Thanks a lot Dana for all these precisions.

could you still explain me what do you mean by

"weighting the reeds" and how you do that ?

 

Of course, with 40 buttons I have alternate fingerings but

there are still a few notes missing, mainly on the left hand.

Apart from the low A instead of D on the first button on lower

row (which seems to be a common change),

I would like a E on the pull (useful for chords), and I'm also thinking of

a alternate fingering for Eb (I'm interested in playing in Cminor and

I find the standart layout quite unpractical for Eb).

I also had the same idea as you for the low D instead of F.

I have other ideas, but according to your remarks I think the final

changes will be rather minimal.

 

David

[Johann]

- How far can a reed be retuned (up or down) ?

- If replacing a reed and keeping the same reed shoe, how far can we go ?

Hi David,

 

 

 

In general you cant answer this question since this depends a lot on the reed itself.

For mid range accordion reeds the possible range of pitch for a specific size my be one octave.

But keep in mind that the reed characteristic changes as well.

If you need to re tune a single reed a semitone or two may be OK without much change on the timbre and behavior. Still i would NOT recommend to do it.

If you have a person who knows to do the job he is the best source to tell you if it is possible to do it at all.

 

All the other questions are even more complicated, i only work with accordions so lets see what other tell you.

[mike averill]

This is a subject I've been thinking a lot about recently.

 

I've started making a foot bass that I intend to populate with reeds from the bottom octave of a victorian reed organ (aquired on ebay as Im too attached to my own reed organ). The reeds are pitched with A = 452, choir pitch I think.

 

At the moment Im planning on tuning them to the next semitone up ( based on A = 440) because there is much more metal on the tips than at the base and so less chance of wrecking the reed.

Edited June 2, 2007 by mike averill

[Dana Johnson]

Thanks a lot Dana for all these precisions.

could you still explain me what do you mean by

"weighting the reeds" and how you do that ?

 

Of course, with 40 buttons I have alternate fingerings but

there are still a few notes missing, mainly on the left hand.

Apart from the low A instead of D on the first button on lower

row (which seems to be a common change),

I would like a E on the pull (useful for chords), and I'm also thinking of

a alternate fingering for Eb (I'm interested in playing in Cminor and

I find the standart layout quite unpractical for Eb).

I also had the same idea as you for the low D instead of F.

I have other ideas, but according to your remarks I think the final

changes will be rather minimal.

 

David

There are two ways I weight reeds, the first is to use low temp silver solder ( melts around 452deg. F. ) and solder a small block of nickel silver or brass to the reed tip and vile it in a wedge shape sothe tip is theick and it feathers into the reed. The amount of metal removed determines the pitch. This is easily removeable, as well as providing clean airflow at the tip. I also use the straight silver solder for smaller changes, melting a shallow puddle on the tip and stoning the edges flush with the side of the reed if the solder has flowed to the edge or over. then I use a fine file to take off a little metal at a timeuntil the right pitch is reached. I don't like the thick pile of solder used to weight old Jeffires reeds for instance, since I feel they degrade the speaking qualities of the reed too much, where the clean square edged block retains most of it.

I usually slip a thin sheet of red silicone rubber under the reed tongue to keep the flux and solder away from the reed shoe. It won't melt at soldering temperatures and helps keep the heat localized.

 

Using the low temp solder and flux, (which won't destroy the temper of the reed) It is important to neutralize it after with a strong solution of baking soda and water. then rinse in plain hot water, and thouroughly dry it on a surface warm enough to eveaporate any remaing water that has seeped under / around the reed where it is attached. You can give it all a light coat of one of the dry film lubricants if you like and wipe off any excess. The dry film won't attract dust, and the exceedingly thin coating won't de tune the reed.

 

Weighting the extra D to the low A is practical (and reversable ) as is the F to low D change. I understand your desire for the draw E ( I presume midrange? ) For Irish Music, I just switch directions and use the press E and it's natural chords, but that may not give you what you want. If I were going to try to add the Draw E, I would probably lower one of the two Draw C#'s at the end of the middle or accidental( outer row). they already exist on the right hand, and while that large a drop would likely give you a less responsive reed, for chord purposes it should do ok. The easiest change would be to sacrifice your low D#,(Eb) and raise it a semi tone, but that is not so good for playing in E# and there are tunes that use it occasionally. You can do like people with limited range instruments and substitute something else in it'a place in the music, but some tunes will lose a lot by doing that. think about chord fingerings before you make your choice so what ever you do will be practical to finger. I don't know what you have in mind for C minor, but my experience is that even hard things can be mastered with enough practice, and often they only seem hard because they are so different than what we are used to.

( Kester makes a rosin type core low temp lead free solder that is non corrosive. I have switched to that. Lead solders are being phased out in industry so the lead free types ( usually lower melting point ) are becoming more available. If you can get types with non corrosive flux, or plain and use a non corrosive flux ( one that doesn't have zinc chloride in it ) use that.

Dana

Edited May 11, 2010 by Dana Johnson

[david fabre]

Thanks again.

Your explanations seem quite complete, although I will need a good dictionnary to

understand everything (my english technical vocabulary is limited).

Anyway I will most likely not do that myself.

The problem is that I still did'nt find the right person to do the job (I live in south of France and

here very few people know what is a concertina, even among accordeon specialists.)

This gives me some more time to think about the note changes...

 

For the left hand I was precisely considering raising the low Eb to E. I see lots of advantages for this :

this simplifies a lot fingering in the lower range ( for example, sequences such as A_ C# E C# D or

B_ D C# E D could be played with minimimal displacement of the fingers). This is also perfect

for playing chords in the irish style, for example along with A played with the first finger.

I was then considering putting the lost Eb on one of the additionnal buttonsI have at the

extremities of the rows. I see three possibilities :

a/ on the upper one, instead of low C# on the pull

(seems the more logical, but unfortunately the Eb reed of my instrument does not fit unto that slot.

Curiously the C# reed is longer but narrower than the Eb one.)

b/ on the middle one, instead of high C# on the pull (but it's a large gap, and keeping a C#

on the left hand can be helpful)

c/ on the lower one, instead of F on the push (a note I don't consider very helpful).

Here the reed has the just size for the slot, but the Eb will be reversed from it's original direction.

Therefore some chords, such as the B one, wil be reversed.

I have not yet made my choice. What do you think ?

 

To be complete, the other changes I'm considering are for the two buttons located above the inside row of the right hand.

The first one is C#(pull)/Eb(push) and I thought of lowering the C# to Bb (I have three other C# on my instrument,

and having Bb on the right hand may facilitate fingering in Gminor).

The second one is E(pull)/D(push) and I thought that a F# on the push could be more helpful than the D,

for example for playing EF#G triplets or sliding up to G. My instrument already has a F# on the push but

for the index, and this finger is already quite busy.

 

For Cminor, i thought it could be interesting for slow airs, because of the C drone and the basses.

Moreover, I'm not only interested by irish music but would like to try other styles and tonalities (I'm also a jazz pianist).

 

May I ask an other question ?

My bellows is still working (thanks to a lot of duct tape) but will have to be changed someday.

I was considering begining by the retuning and changing the bellows next year. However, is there a risk that

changing the bellows alters the pitch ? (In that case it would be better to begin by the bellows.)

 

David

[Dana Johnson]

The problem is that I still did'nt find the right person to do the job (I live in south of France and

here very few people know what is a concertina, even among accordeon specialists.)

This gives me some more time to think about the note changes...

 

More thinking the better, though yours seems pretty good so far, still, south of France is a lot closer to good concertina repair people than a lot of other places!

 

For the left hand I was precisely considering raising the low Eb to E.

this is doable with metal removal, but the reed tip should be thick enough to take it, and can be undone with weighting, but would be best with a replacement reed. Then switch the Eb reed to another position if it will work there.

 

I was then considering putting the lost Eb on one of the additionnal buttonsI have at the

extremities of the rows. I see three possibilities :

a/ on the upper one, instead of low C# on the pull

(seems the more logical, but unfortunately the Eb reed of my instrument does not fit unto that slot.

Curiously the C# reed is longer but narrower than the Eb one.)

b/ on the middle one, instead of high C# on the pull (but it's a large gap, and keeping a C#

on the left hand can be helpful)

c/ on the lower one, instead of F on the push (a note I don't consider very helpful).

Here the reed has the just size for the slot, but the Eb will be reversed from it's original direction.

Therefore some chords, such as the B one, wil be reversed.

I have not yet made my choice. What do you think ?

 

I like switching with the Push F, which could be a useful note, but no more than than the Eb, especially if it means having one instead of none. The difference in reed sizes you menioned above, only shows you how much lattitude there can be in reeds. Making a new E tongue for the current Eb is pretty easy ( for someone with the steel and the knowledge), but they should make sure it has roughly the same stiffness as the current reed. the Push F can be dropped by weighting to the Eb pitch so no swapping would be needed, or even better, switch the Eb for the F then weight the F to E and replace it in the old Eb location. no filing needed. Having the Eb in the opposite direction is not too difficult to cope with, just make sure you can get what chords you may want of it, knowing that their will be limitations either way.

 

To be complete, the other changes I'm considering are for the two buttons located above the inside row of the right hand.

The first one is C#(pull)/Eb(push) and I thought of lowering the C# to Bb (I have three other C# on my instrument,

and having Bb on the right hand may facilitate fingering in Gminor).

 

I'm looking at a generic Wheatstone 40 button anglo layout, and see a push Bb draw G# on thefirst button on the inner "G" row on the right hand. Do you not have this? if not, this seems to be a great place for it

 

The second one is E(pull)/D(push) and I thought that a F# on the push could be more helpful than the D,

for example for playing EF#G triplets or sliding up to G. My instrument already has a F# on the push but

for the index, and this finger is already quite busy.

Switch to your draw G on the accidental row if you need to have them all in the same direction. Personally, I prefer to keep the draw, draw , push pattern in most triplets in Irish music anyway if I can. they often suit the rhythm better. A push F3 is an admirable desire, but the current push E is also most useful. Looking at the chart I found, tey put the push F# on the first button of the outer row right hand over a Draw C#. you can then use it in conjunction with the draw G if you want to avoid the jump with your index finger.

 

May I ask an other question ?

My bellows is still working (thanks to a lot of duct tape) but will have to be changed someday.

I was considering begining by the retuning and changing the bellows next year. However, is there a risk that

changing the bellows alters the pitch ? (In that case it would be better to begin by the bellows.)

 

David

 

This should not be a problem. A new bellows may make a slight difference in the clarity of notes especially if the old one is really in bad shape with limp cards on the inside, or is terribly leaky. Do them at the same time regardless. the instrument probably should be gone over for touching up the tuning anyway if yo are going to all this trouble.

Dana

(thought I had the quote thing worked out, must have to togle multi quote or something. Maybe I'll get it right next time)

[david fabre]

Wonderful. Now I know everything I wanted.

 

>even better, switch the Eb for the F then weight the F to E and replace it in the old Eb location.

 

I think I will do that : minimum change and all reversible.

 

> I'm looking at a generic Wheatstone 40 button anglo layout, and see a push Bb draw G# on the first

> button on the inner "G" row on the right hand. Do you not have this? if not, this seems to be a great place for it

 

I have this button : these are notes of the upper octave. I was considering duplicating

the lower Bb (the one usually availible with the left index).

Actually this (and the push F#) was just an idea to find an utility to these two lonely buttons.

But anyway they are difficult to reach and maybe I will eventually leave them as they are.

For triplets, you are probably true : I have to get used to play them with a bellow reverse.

 

 

David

(no better than you for using quotes...)