Tortoiseshell Duet

[Stephen Chambers]

Here's a rare and interesting one on eBay; it's a 1955 tortoiseshell 72-key duet #36212 (not the non-existant #38212 as reported by the seller): http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

It's in the ledgers on this page: http://www.horniman.info/DKNSARC/SD03/PAGES/D3P0770S.HTM

 

Maybe it should be dubbed "the Red Meanie"?

[Robin Harrison]

.....well spotted. I saw it and thought it was mother-of toilet -seat.

Is this still covered by the CITES agreement ?

Robin

[malcolm clapp]

Now relisted with correct number. here

 

 

MC

Edited March 22, 2007 by malcolm clapp

[Dirge]

The ad talked about 'the estate of a famous musician' so I asked who it was; the seller is checking that it's no secret before telling me, but this was the instrument of the husband of a lady violinist. He used to play in Florida apparently. Presumably he commissioned it in the first place.

 

Will this be a good player? It's 1950's but still top of the range, isn't it? (I'd love it but can't justify it)

[JimLucas]

.....well spotted. I saw it and thought it was mother-of toilet -seat.

Is this still covered by the CITES agreement ?

An important question. My understanding is that not only is tortoise shell still covered by CITES as endangered species, but it's even worse than that:

Last time I checked, the US laws are far more restrictive than CITES itself, even though their preamble claims they're based on the treaty. E.g., it appears that under the US law, neither items produced before the treaty went into effect nor personal transactions are exempt from the general prohibition. What's more, the text seems to say that

businesses

can apply for exceptions, but

individuals

can't.

 

Thus, it may be illegal for the seller to actually sell the instrument (or even transfer ownership without any money changing hands) within the US, except to a business with an "exception" license, and shipping it outside the US (and theoretically even within) would risk having it confiscated and destroyed.

 

Sobering thoughts, indeed.

By the way, back in the 1980's I handled an extended-treble Æola EC of similar vintage, with similar bright red bellows and bright red paint under the tortoiseshell, though it also had gold plated buttons and hardware. It was from California, and as far as I know the owner didn't play duet, so I wonder if this was a common "esthetic" of the period.

[Stephen Chambers]

.....well spotted. I saw it and thought it was mother-of toilet -seat.

Is this still covered by the CITES agreement ?

An important question. My understanding is that not only is tortoise shell still covered by CITES as endangered species, but it's even worse than that:

Last time I checked, the US laws are far more restrictive than CITES itself, even though their preamble claims they're based on the treaty. E.g., it appears that under the US law, neither items produced before the treaty went into effect nor personal transactions are exempt from the general prohibition. What's more, the text seems to say that

businesses

can apply for exceptions, but

individuals

can't.

 

Thus, it may be illegal for the seller to actually sell the instrument (or even transfer ownership without any money changing hands) within the US, except to a business with an "exception" license, and shipping it outside the US (and theoretically even within) would risk having it confiscated and destroyed.

 

Sobering thoughts, indeed.

Indeed so, if it is made of genuine tortoiseshell, but I'd have my doubts. My concert pitch treble for several years was a (1928?) 48-key in tortoiseshell (though I much preferred the tone of my high pitch 1910 ebony one), and I remember talking to Steve Dickinson about tortoiseshell instruments and doubt being cast on the authenticity of the material, especially on whether you could get a large enough plate of genuine tortoise (actually it comes from a turtle!) shell to make the ends of a large duet like this one (and I once had another 72-key, that KV Chidley had made for his wife).

 

It was suggested to me that the only way you could be sure if the material was genuine was to try to stick a heated pin into it, but I never found that an appealing idea and had more respect for my instrument, not forgetting that celluloid (which I'd only think of as "mother of toilet seat" if it was pearloid) is highly flammable (hence Rolf Harris' accordion went up in flames one time on stage, from the heat of the lights).

 

 

By the way, back in the 1980's I handled an extended-treble Æola EC of similar vintage, with similar bright red bellows and bright red paint under the tortoiseshell, though it also had gold plated buttons and hardware. It was from California, and as far as I know the owner didn't play duet, so I wonder if this was a common "esthetic" of the period.

The older ones that I've had/seen have been in a darker, more sober finish with black bellows.

[JimLucas]

... Thus, it may be illegal for the seller to actually sell the instrument (or even transfer ownership without any money changing hands) within the US, except to a business with an "exception" license, and shipping it outside the US (and theoretically even within) would risk having it confiscated and destroyed.

 

Sobering thoughts, indeed.

Indeed so, if it is made of genuine tortoiseshell, but I'd have my doubts. My concert pitch treble for several years was a (1928?) 48-key in tortoiseshell (though I much preferred the tone of my high pitch 1910 ebony one), and I remember talking to Steve Dickinson about tortoiseshell instruments and doubt being cast on the authenticity of the material, especially on whether you could get a large enough plate of genuine tortoise (actually it comes from a turtle!) shell to make the ends of a large duet like this one.

Actually, it comes from one of several species of sea turtle, and some of them can reach a length of 6 feet (2 meters). Furthermore, the material of the shell can be molded or rolled (so that it's thinner but covers more area), though only in a very narrow temperature range. (It's something like 2 degrees centigrade, if I recall. Below that range it's brittle, and above it scorches.) I learned this from a friend who restored the badly damaged end of a beautiful tortoiseshell Æola for me. (He also made some small sheets of "reed brass" -- from a formula he found in an old book, -- but that was an independent project. )

 

And it seems unlikely to me that Wheatstone -- at any time in its history -- would claim that the ends of deluxe instruments were tortoiseshell if they were really imitation. If that were the case, I would expect them to at least put "tortoiseshell" in quotes.

 

And of course, if customs agents believe it is real tortoiseshell, there's the possibility that they could destroy it before one could get a court order to prevent them. Even if it really is plastic.

 

By the way, back in the 1980's I handled an extended-treble Æola EC of similar vintage, with similar bright red bellows and bright red paint under the tortoiseshell, though it also had gold plated buttons and hardware. It was from California, and as far as I know the owner didn't play duet, so I wonder if this was a common "esthetic" of the period.

The older ones that I've had/seen have been in a darker, more sober finish with black bellows.

Same here. My own Æola has a black bellows and tortoiseshell that's a mix of orange and black. The tortoiseshell of the one my friend repaired was a more subdued mix of yellow and purple hues. I'm not sure about the bellows, but I seem to remember a dark brown. And a lovely baritone Æola English I met a few years ago had shell of a more brownish hue -- more like the plastic "tortoiseshell" still used for decorative combs -- and dark bellows to match.

[Dirge]

The seller has added pictures of an old album ' Herb and Elena Ayers; Music from Le Dome'. They look like a violin and concertina duo, Herb on duet concertina. Anyone heard of them?

 

Is' 'Le Dome' (it should have a circumflex on the O but I couldn't find out how to add it) a fancy hotel somewhere? They have a Palm Court look about them.

 

I've just searched the forums and Herb (alone) turned up once before; a 1948 pic of him was posted also with a request for further info. There he's wearing a dress suit and carrying a tortoiseshell English. The picture looks very like a performers handout, autograph and all.

Edited March 27, 2007 by Dirge

[Stephen Chambers]

... it comes from one of several species of sea turtle, and some of them can reach a length of 6 feet (2 meters).

Jim,

 

Yes I know that, but that large shell is made up of many smaller plates, and it is the size of those individual plates that I understand may be the limiting factor.

 

I really wouldn't like to say definitively what the "tortoiseshell" material is, and it may vary from one instrument to another due to various factors, but it may be significant that Wheatstone's only started to build these Æolas after the introduction of celluloid as an accordion finish in the 1920s, around the same time that Lachenal's were building their "mother-of-toilet-seat" New Edeophones.

 

... it seems unlikely to me that Wheatstone -- at any time in its history -- would claim that the ends of deluxe instruments were tortoiseshell if they were really imitation. If that were the case, I would expect them to at least put "tortoiseshell" in quotes.

Well they did claim that many of their top models were "ebony", when they weren't ...

[JimLucas]

... it seems unlikely to me that Wheatstone -- at any time in its history -- would claim that the ends of deluxe instruments were tortoiseshell if they were really imitation. If that were the case, I would expect them to at least put "tortoiseshell" in quotes.

Well they did claim that many of their top models were "ebony", when they weren't ...

Not even ebony veneer? Interesting point.

 

But in looking through the Wheatstone ledgers (SD01, SD02), I see that only a few entries say "ebony", while a great many say "black". Do we know whether this is simply inconsistency in recording the same finish, or perhaps a true distinction? Or if the latter, whether the distinction was accompanied by a price difference? (Please understand that I'm not trying to argue. I'm asking because I don't know, and I'm curious.)

 

... it comes from one of several species of sea turtle, and some of them can reach a length of 6 feet (2 meters).

Yes I know that, but that large shell is made up of many smaller plates...

True, but in the photos I've looked at the largest of the scutes (plates) seem to have a diagonal distance of at least 1/6 the length of the shell, and I've read that they overlap, though I don't know by how much. Thus, a single plate from an exceptionally large shell might be able to cover the end of a larger concertina. In any case, it seems quite possible that a single plate from a large (length up to 36") hawksbill turtle (the most prized for their shell) could cover the end of a standard treble English.

 

...and it is the size of those individual plates that I understand may be the limiting factor.

Or maybe not. My understanding that tortoiseshell may be roll-extruded to make it thinner and broader (and also more uniform in thickness) isn't precisely confirmed by this reference, but if it can "graft itself", then I would expect that it has some ductility. In addition, I think that implies that it might be possible to "weld" individual smaller sheets of TS together into larger sheets.

 

I really wouldn't like to say definitively what the "tortoiseshell" material is, and it may vary from one instrument to another due to various factors...

Agreed. It might be that some concertina "tortoiseshell" is indeed plastic, but I'm fairly certain that at least some is the real stuff. The one that just sold on eBay? In truth, I can only speculate.

 

...but it may be significant that Wheatstone's only started to build these Æolas after the introduction of celluloid as an accordion finish in the 1920s, around the same time that Lachenal's were building their "mother-of-toilet-seat" New Edeophones.

Maybe a relationship; maybe not. After all, the MOT New Edeophones weren't trying to pretend that their finish was something other than plastic. I don't know about the accordions, but I don't recall ever seeing one finished overall in tortoiseshell, imitation or otherwise. Maybe imitation ivory, though.

 

But even once Wheatstone started making tortoiseshell (or "tortoiseshell") instruments, they were initially quite rare. Two in 1924, three in 1925, then a spurt of four (or eight? I'm not sure what that diagonal line includes) in January 1926 and 10 more in the same year. Whatever the material, it apparently gained popularity slowly.

 

There's so much we still don't know.

[Dave Prebble]

Hi folks,

 

I understand from a friend who spoke to Harry Minting about this many years ago, that they had extreme difficulty obtaining quality tortioise shell particularly pieces large enough for duets and that that was a significant limiting factor on production.

Tortoise shell instruments also commanded a huge premium on price so somebody must have loved them.

Regards

 

Dave

[Stephen Chambers]

... in looking through the Wheatstone ledgers (SD01, SD02), I see that only a few entries say "ebony", while a great many say "black". Do we know whether this is simply inconsistency in recording the same finish, or perhaps a true distinction?

Jim,

 

The ledgers may be inconsistent, but the catalogues always said "ebony". However, I think such descriptions should be more properly regarded as indications of "finish" rather than simply of material.

 

I don't know about the accordions, but I don't recall ever seeing one finished overall in tortoiseshell, imitation or otherwise. Maybe imitation ivory, though.

 

More usually they employed "tortoiseshell" as a contrast with ivorine or m-o-t-s, but maybe this one that just sold on eBay?:

 

 

There's so much we still don't know.

 

Learning all ze time ...

[Stephen Chambers]

I understand from a friend who spoke to Harry Minting about this many years ago, that they had extreme difficulty obtaining quality tortioise shell particularly pieces large enough for duets and that that was a significant limiting factor on production.

Tortoise shell instruments also commanded a huge premium on price so somebody must have loved them.

Dave,

 

I've no information regarding original prices (they seem never to have been a"catalogue option"), but Harry had two tortoiseshell Æolas when I knew him; his own and Ernest Rutterford's, and it was because I also had one that I came to meet him in the first place. However, Harry was not employed by Wheatstone's until the 1950s, so he wasn't with them at the time that most of the tortoiseshell instruments were made.